Does God Exist?

[r3v sparta]

-This is a more simple thread, but almost like Rasta's.-



Does God Exist?

Speaking biologically there is no way in hell, or anywhere, that a being of a higher plane can create something as in space and everything in it.

Lets see if our records are accurate....

Now if you open up the bible, it is translated and passed down from generation to generation, how can we rely on this source?

Have you ever played the game telephone?

[SuperSkunk]

I played telephone in elementry school. I was always the asshole kid who would diributally change the word to something totally messed up.

[r3v sparta]

Yes well couldn't Moses be that asshole?

[itismesaj]

I'm pretty sure that when a new version of the Bible is made, it is always translated from the original copies in Greek, Latin, etc.

[itismesaj]

And, there is no clash between evolution and the existence of God. Read some Einstein.

[KonaClump7005]

i believe the translations got jacked up over thousands of years and everyone had their own input until someone finally wrote it down.. well if there is a god he is one messed up being

[Rasta_Man]

Yes well couldn't Moses be that asshole?

Yes, and everyone who believed a single word he supposalably said.

[Rasta_Man]

God is not logical to me. It feels wrong.

[itismesaj]

Well, according to Taoism, every man must find his own spiritual journey.

And I don't think God should be referred to as "him." I don't believe God is a tangible item and so how can God have gender?

[A Deo et Rege]

"The absence of proof is not the proof of absence." That statement holds far more weight than any other statement i have read so far, and translated so the less intelligent people can understand it reads like this: "Just because there is no proof that it exist does not mean that it doesn't exist; only if there is proof of against the existence can you say that it doesn't exist, and the only way to prove something doesn't exist is through mathematical and scientific analysis which has so far proven that it is possible for a higher-dimensional being (God) to exist." If you have read anything about string theory you would partially understand what I am talking about. That is all I have to say on the matter at hand.

[r3v sparta]

Well still,

I could say I believe in something in a higher plane if you would, as in nature or maybe god.

But A Deo et Rege, then thats pretty much saying god is neutral, theres no real proof to prove the exsistance of him, but theres no proof to say he doesnt exist.

But lets just say this...

Where was god on 9-11 or when the nazi's held the jews captive in the concentration camps.

If he loves everyone of his children, why would he let them suffer so?

[superflysuperwhite]

cus gods not a he or she plus i honestly dont believe that humans are gods only "children" we suck

if you want to anaylz 9/11 god was there the terrorist were killing in the name of god.

now i dont believe in god in the sense of what any religion teaches but, i see it like this gods like a parent it can tell you not to do something but you can do it any ways and parents dont always protect you (this you should know for a fact) people need to stop relying on god and take responsibility for what people do

[Basarab]

WOW...the poll is at 50/50, that was highly unexpected. I think god is just a concept to help people explain morals and things they can't explain themselves. and there is no way you can ask if god exists because thousands of gods exist to thoes that believe in them.

[r3v sparta]

:D

ahh the controversy spilling from this conversation

[solidsnake9000]

this is going to end up a funy conversation

ow and to anser ur question on why bad things happen cause adem and eve took the fruit of knowledge remember ever read the book of vertuis

[r3v sparta]

Who says adam and eve even exist?

Biologically speaking, we evolved from apes, which sounds wayyyyy more reasonable then two naked adolescence's being spawned from no where, out of dust, to make love.... Makes you think doesnt it?

[superflysuperwhite]

adam and eve actually is like one of those stories with a deeper meaning behinde it. it never really happend but.... its actually telling you not to have pre-marrital sex

[SuperSkunk]

Well still,

I could say I believe in something in a higher plane if you would, as in nature or maybe god.

But A Deo et Rege, then thats pretty much saying god is neutral, theres no real proof to prove the exsistance of him, but theres no proof to say he doesnt exist.

There is no proof that he exists. Thats enough proof to say he doesn't exist.

[XGP0001]

I believe in God, but this world is so fucked up even simple things can go bad fast.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/XGP0001/JesusJuice.jpg

[superflysuperwhite]

hahahahhahahahhahahahaha thats great

[SuperSkunk]

hahahahahaha is that little kid supposed to be there lol

[itismesaj]

There is no proof that he exists. Thats enough proof to say he doesn't exist.
There is quite a bit of historical literature written about God, you know...

[SuperSkunk]

God is just a word they would use to describe the idea.

[A Deo et Rege]

There is no proof that he exists. Thats enough proof to say he doesn't exist.

How can "no" proof be enough proof to say God doesn't exist. If there is no proof it would just be speculation to say God does or doesn't exist because there is no way to prove the existence or non-existence of an outer-dimensional being.

[SuperSkunk]

Okay well no proof he exists is enough proof for me.

Until god shows his/hers/it's face I'm not gunna believe. Seeing is believing.

[A Deo et Rege]

Can you see the air you breath?:D

[XGP0001]

Its hard to explain with me. I am a Christian, but I do not go to church or pray. I don't believe its possible to prove God exist regardless though. If you have ever watched a show on Adult Swim called Futurama, it has a pretty good idea on the theory of God existing IMO. If God shows us he doesn't exist with physical proof, we wont really believe hes there at all. Isn't that his whole being anyways? The day one man doesn't think God will return, he sweeps the earth in a glory of holy death or hell on earth for 7 years. (IDK)
But off topic singing for eternity seems pretty vauge and *****g to me. Or as burning in hell doesn't quite fit me either. My idea of God is also not the same as a basic Christian. I don't want to change the thread topic, but give some ideas on what you think God is, or the problems we see in worship. If "Evolution" or the idea of the "Bible Creation" if true regardless, the first man and woman on this earth had the concept of child birth, thus asking the question of "Where did I come from?". This earth has been here a long ass time with so many generations, that even if we had pen and paper at the start i doubt it would have lasted anyways. Whether God is real or not man is comforted by the thought we have a heaven at the end of some sort. YES, there are other religions and here are some of the things that determine its proof from its believers. Age of the religion, the feeling of God, or just shere belief. Thats not even near all of it, but we all know how storys change with time, people move and separate etc. All religions are basically the same if you look at the roots of them. Help support the church, help others to see the way you do, be good to your neighbors, don't murder, etc. I just believe every man has a different image of what God is or looks like, creating different religions with storys, time, and well just crazy people saying they are Gods. IMO the world just needs to combine some things and just let people worship God as they think he looks like. Fuck all this my God is better then your God bullshit. All religions are the same God to me, if you believe in God, you just have your own picture of him. So what if my God looks like John Travolta from the movie Grease. Let the world be at peace, they believe God exist too.(In there own little way and image)

This may not make sense, seeing as its 11PM and i am sleepy and half stoned, BUT FUCK YOU!!! Nahh, not really. Just as a whole though if God does exist, he will never let anyone as dumb as a man prove he exist with science. Cmon, you can make an A-Bomb, God can create an atmosphere of fish piss and watch you die from drowning or water pressure haha. The only way you could pretty much prove God doesn't exist would to be to go back into time and find Jesus and take a blood sample to see whats up. Do that, then you can tell me God doesn't exist. No one could ever convince the world there is no God, people just don't want to hear a fact that they are alone in the after-life.

[r3v sparta]

I know, but we are talking about the figure of god, not how you believe in someone represented as god. ( your john travolta idea lol )

[XGP0001]

I know, I know, I was just using John Travolta as an example from Family Guy or something, i don't really think thats God lol.

[r3v sparta]

sure......... lol

[Palm3R]

I said yes... I'm not gonna sit here and explain why ,cuz i really don't have the time now... but I marked yes. and a little hint:
to the people who are telling everyone else that god doesn't exist, you aren't gonna change them just by saying that it isn't true. I don't mean people that are saying THEY don't believe in god, I mean, people who are telling other people to give up is not going to change thier religion... you'de have a better chance changing a brick wall by talking to it...

[SuperSkunk]

Can you see the air you breath?:D

I didn't say I believe in air. Air is just a goverment cover up. lol

[A Deo et Rege]

Is the existence of a God or supreme being incomprehensible to you?

[Sarah]

I agree with palm if you believe and your belief is strong people will have a hard time changing you. I know that to some people God may be something to be skeptical about, you may not see much to back him up, no? how about popes' body's that never decay with out ever being embalmed? how dose that happen? Joan of arc, they could not burn her, they ended up calling her a witch with "magical" "powers" uhhh i think not. And as for the bit about the Bible did you know that it is the most historically correct document in existence? Well it is. You'd do well to read it some time.

[Rasta_Man]

The people who wrote The Bible (and all religion) were sexist, racist, scared, power hungry, hypocritical, and knew nothing about how the mechanics that makes our existence work. I’m better off on my own.

Religion has done nothing but try to hide the truth. We relapsed in technology in our history. The ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, and other nations had great architectural skills that we still don’t know about to this very day. Ancient documents and culture was destroyed by the monotheism that came after our ancient ancestors. Compare the dark and medieval ages to the ancient civilization. Do you see where I’m trying to get at?

[A Deo et Rege]

The people who wrote The Bible (and all religion) were sexist, racist, scared, power hungry, hypocritical, and knew nothing about how the mechanics that makes our existence work. I’m better off on my own.

Religion has done nothing but try to hide the truth. We relapsed in technology in our history. The ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, and other nations had great architectural skills that we still don’t know about to this very day. Ancient documents and culture was destroyed by the monotheism that came after our ancient ancestors. Compare the dark and medieval ages to the ancient civilization. Do you see where I’m trying to get at?

I see your point, but the reason for this is that people have always interpreted their religious writings to fit their own needs which has corrupted religion. This is the reason I don't own any of the new bibles; they have all been corrupted over the centuries, and for this reason I own a bible from the 12th century-I don't know the exact date, but it is said to be printed in the early 1130's by christian monks. It was the oldest bible I could get my hands own because these types of books sell insanely fast. I often search rare book dealers to find more historically accurate versions of the bible and other historical text, but my lack of funds keeps me from purchasing any more for the time being. Now to get to the point of my rambling; Do you believe in a naturalistic creation in which rational beings are made from irrational particles just by chance? If you do then you are far less intelligent that I though because the statistics of such series of events, the evolution of man from nothing, is highly improbable; it is mind boggling how unlikely, statistically improbable, it is for this to happen.

[superflysuperwhite]

please explain.

[A Deo et Rege]

Naturalistic Creation?

[superflysuperwhite]

yeah how is it not possible.
i dont think thats what happend but im curious

[A Deo et Rege]

I didn't say that it wasn't possible; I just said that it was "highly improbable." It could happen, but statistics argue otherwise. The likelihood of a random assortment of atoms combining themselves into a thinking, functioning human being is highly unlikely. Statistically you have a better chance of being dematerialized and rematerialized somewhere else than life dose of emanating from a random assortment of atoms. The naturalists say that our thoughts are no more than random electronic impulses on an atomic level that just so happen to produce a thought; does that sound a little unlikely to you or am I the only one?

[superflysuperwhite]

hm sounds like what ive been thinking, i really dont think people were randomly made, but im not gonna sit here and say "GOD" did the whole creation story the way its portrayed in the bible.

this is kind of how i see it, "god" made a firework, ya know the ones that are really cool and are usuall saved for the finally, (this is a comparison god didnt make a firework) when you do make one though you have an idea of what its gonna look like when it explodes.

iuno if any of that makes sense but it does in my head

[A Deo et Rege]

The way the bible depicts the creation it makes it sound like a cheap magic trick; I believe it to have quite a bit more complexity than that, but not to the extent of the naturalist view. I believe that God set the framework for existence and began an experiment on a monumental scale which has so far gone quite well with the exception of a couple of extinctions, dinosaurs for example, which were crucial to our survival as a species. Do you get the gist of my views?

[superflysuperwhite]

yeah, although you know me i still believe the dinosaurs are comeing back.

but yeah i think about it the same way you do, although i dont believe humans are the last piece of the puzzle sort to say

[Sarah]

I didn't say that it wasn't possible; I just said that it was "highly improbable." It could happen, but statistics argue otherwise. The likelihood of a random assortment of atoms combining themselves into a thinking, functioning human being is highly unlikely. Statistically you have a better chance of being dematerialized and rematerialized somewhere else than life dose of emanating from a random assortment of atoms. The naturalists say that our thoughts are no more than random electronic impulses on an atomic level that just so happen to produce a thought; does that sound a little unlikely to you or am I the only one?

The way the bible depicts the creation it makes it sound like a cheap magic trick; I believe it to have quite a bit more complexity than that, but not to the extent of the naturalist view. I believe that God set the framework for existence and began an experiment on a monumental scale which has so far gone quite well with the exception of a couple of extinctions, dinosaurs for example, which were crucial to our survival as a species. Do you get the gist of my views?

I agree with this. The story of creation is one of those things in the bible that should not be taken one hundred percent literally, like the story of Noah's arc there is no way a person could fit even one of every single animal in the earth in to an arc. It just can't happen. so maybe God just made the beginning like when a person plants a seed you just do the basics and watch it evolve from there right? So evolution is not completely out of the question by any means in fact i think it's quite possible. God made a simple being and we evolved from that. Highly probable no? But then the idea that God created humans as we are today (or very nearly) is possible too. It's hard to say seeing as we weren't there. But like before "if your belief in something is strong people will have a hard time changing you" thats just the way it is.

[Newborn Zombie]

I was just thinking about this a few days ago, I even remembered that telephone game when I was explaining to friends at school that I don't believe in God or in any religion. I'm not an Athiest, but I guess i just don't really know what to believe. I used to be a fucking sheep Christian like most (nothing wrong with it), but then I thought about things. Most governments and authoritarian societies since the beginning of time have used fear and threats to keep poeple obeying. Most people would say that's not right and shouldn't be done. Most of these same people don't say the "F" word because they believe they'll be spending a long time in a "Lake of Fire" for it. Maybe I'm just thinking too much about it...or not nearly enough.

[Sarah]

I don't think governments should use force/pain or what ever you want to call it to control people. The best way to get people to do what you want is to gain trust and respect from them and not abuse it after you have it, but believe me that (or anything else) is not going to keep me from saying, as you put it the "F word". I have believed in God since i was but a wee lass and i guess it all just makes sense to me. Recently i did some major questioning of it all but when God yanks you feet first out of a huge mess ha ha lets just say you don't question any more period p-e-r-i-o-d.

[PhonePhrack]

your on your period?



lol.



ATHEISM!

[eSiobhan]

i like the word non-theist.

[Rasta_Man]

I want to say that I don’t have a problem with other peoples opinions and beliefs. It is these differences that make the world so great. I’m not telling anyone to come to the dark side, I’m pointing out things that I have noticed.

[hellraising2150]

is there no in between i mean i think there is a possibility that he is real but i also think that we over use the idea of him where as how many times have you heard dying people who got better saying "God has been good to me" now why the hell does he get the credit i mean where the hell was he when the heart stops or when the child gets told they have brain cancer and also in the bible it starts out with things like i am a jealous God worship me or you burn in an inferno for eternity and then says he loves every creature i think there may be a possibility of a greater purpose or a being but there is also the thought that god may not be what the bible says he is but also to believe in no god means that life is finite

[Newborn Zombie]

i like the word non-theist.

I like that too. I'm stealing that from you.

[Sarah]

No ha ha ha very kind of you to ask though ha ha lol.

[recon]

Okay well no proof he exists is enough proof for me.

Until god shows his/hers/it's face I'm not gunna believe. Seeing is believing.

i know someone who has been to heaven. someone at the gates said he still had work to do on earth so they sent him back.....


thomas from the bible wouldn't belive until he stuck his fingers through the holes in jesus' hands but once he say he understood seing is not belive. people hallucinate on drugs and see demons. who created those demons??? .........Godd duh.

plus believeing GOd is real is faith soo im sugesting you read the bible or your going to rot in hell in a lake of fire. for eternity....think about that

[Newborn Zombie]

i know someone who has been to heaven. someone at the gates said he still had work to do on earth so they sent him back.....


thomas from the bible wouldn't belive until he stuck his fingers through the holes in jesus' hands but once he say he understood seing is not belive. people hallucinate on drugs and see demons. who created those demons??? .........Godd duh.

plus believeing GOd is real is faith soo im sugesting you read the bible or your going to rot in hell in a lake of fire. for eternity....think about that

WTF? None of your post makes any sense. Maybe you should rot in hell in a lake of fire for not being able to write but suggesting someone to read the bible. GOd? Never heard of "GOd" before. Or "Godd". I also never read "seing is not belive". I hope this doesn't make me a flaming fucktard, I just hate stupid people. Oh, there I go again.

[Sarah]

Oi I agree.

[Palm3R]

i know someone who has been to heaven. someone at the gates said he still had work to do on earth so they sent him back.....


thomas from the bible wouldn't belive until he stuck his fingers through the holes in jesus' hands but once he say he understood seing is not belive. people hallucinate on drugs and see demons. who created those demons??? .........Godd duh.

plus believeing GOd is real is faith soo im sugesting you read the bible or your going to rot in hell in a lake of fire. for eternity....think about that

hahaha! learn how to type!

[Rasta_Man]

Here is an idea that I got from Mark Twain's Letter from the Earth. If Adam and Eve where the first two people to walk this world, they had to learn everything for the first time. They were like children. So in the book they come up with these scientific conclusions for everything around them. Then when God comes up to Adam, he is startled because all he hears is this unfamiliar voice coming from the trees, and the voice tells him not the eat from the tree of good and evil. So Adam and Eve are sitting by the tree wondering whats "good" or "evil". So they think about what all these new words can possible mean. So they are sitting and thinking to themselves when Eve comes up with the idea of trying the fruit to find out what all of these new things mean. They did not sin on purpose; they were totally clueless and innocent, like children. Do you see the point?

[SuperSkunk]

i know someone who has been to heaven. someone at the gates said he still had work to do on earth so they sent him back.....

Hahaha thats the stupidest thing I've ever read

[superflysuperwhite]

im seriously about to burn down a church and flip crosses. my fucking religion teacher is spewing out the most idiotic stuff ever. i thought i hated religon before but now..... she wont answer questions, just comes up with more bullshit, cant except the fact that people are shite and the least safisticated or advanced creatures on the planet. WE HAVE SEX WITH DEAD THINGS HOW ADVANCED CAN WE BE!!! its retarded and you can targue because you cant prove faith wrong. i cant go any deeper cus im usually stoned and dont pay that much atention and the more i think aboput it the more i want to kill!

yet i still believe in god... no matter what conclusion i come to, usually that there is no way a god can exist i still find my self believeing

[SuperSkunk]

I have to point out not all of us have sex with dead things.

[Rasta_Man]

Just most of us.

[SuperSkunk]

Haha yeah dude.

[marcraft]

ahem i believe in god BUT the Vatican had the bible revoked twice in the 1200's and all original copies burnt so they could put out a more 'convenient' version and there is a god , sometimes i wonder if he will ever forgive us for what we have done to each other , then i remember all the things i have seen men do to each other and i realize god left this place a long time ago.

[superflysuperwhite]

god made stupid people for our enjoyment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvaplACW4l8

[A Deo et Rege]

God has a sense of humor; if you don't believe me go to Wal-Mart and look.:D

[superflysuperwhite]

rolf YES SO TRUE

[marcraft]

or he just doesnt give a damn, which if he does exist is the most probible conclusion

[superflysuperwhite]

.................. no

[Rasta_Man]

God made the world in 7 days.... he didn't punch back into work the next monday.

[superflysuperwhite]

*didnt i think you ment to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hdij-gCOw

more reasons god loves us

gots one of my fav songs on this one too +!

[hellraising2150]

or he just doesnt give a damn, which if he does exist is the most probible conclusion
i am not saying he isn't real or that he is i am just saying what kind of god is he to put his "children" through hell if he really cares

[superflysuperwhite]

a bord god who gets drunk before noon and beats his wife

[hellraising2150]

you know the bible puts jesus as kind of a peaceful anarchist (where in the fuck is the fun with peace) but one reason people want to believe against something that might go against their mind set is that they want to know what they do on this planet matters and that their life is not finite other wise if they don't believe they know that they will live and die with no purpose.

[superflysuperwhite]

well, in the gospel of i think judas, or mary, one of them, its siad as a boy jesus was makeing some thing like bird and this kid came over and broke it, so jesus killed him.

fuck it humans are crap, we have sex with our dead, im sure god has a back up plan on another planet or another species on this planet

[hellraising2150]

yeah one of the removed gospels in the gnostic text which how can we believe any of the gospels considering the four accepted by the church were found a few hundred years after the events took place and the gnostic text was wrote several hundred after the events but you are right god has a back up plan somewhere probably anyway the point to this is why should we trust a god that supposedly loves everyone but damns the ones who refuse to belive

[superflysuperwhite]

cus he doesnt, religion just tells us that so that we'll follow them, personally i dont believe gods gonna damn me for smokein bud, drinking alcohol, and eating meat on good friday.

i hate religions all of them there all bull half of them believe in the same god yet kill eachother and teach totally different things about god. i believe what i want and i think god is fine with that.

but theres 6 billion people in this world and if there not gonna die on there own then some one or thing needs to take out the trash

[JoeyxViolence]

I believe in him for the simple fact that it's a free card to heaven, if its real then woo free trip to heaven!! If not then fuck it we just die hahaha, but if theres a chance ill take it don't get me wrong I'm not religious, in fact im strongly against religion, I just believe there is something somewhere...to a certain extent...

[hellraising2150]

i don't know people usually follow because it was the way they were raised or they just want hope and god is usually what people turn to and you are right we get into wars over this we sacrifice innocent in the name of different gods i am not exactly sure what to think but if he does exist another thing you are right about is that the bible never mentions that it is wrong to smoke or drink that is one thing the church has added to keep people under their control something they have done for centuries

[hellraising2150]

I believe in him for the simple fact that it's a free card to heaven, if its real then woo free trip to heaven!! If not then fuck it we just die hahaha, but if theres a chance ill take it don't get me wrong I'm not religious, in fact im strongly against religion, I just believe there is something somewhere...to a certain extent...
exactly if you believe free ticket to heaven if not oh well we had fun going every sunday morning

[superflysuperwhite]

lol

yeah its kind of like the lottery, if you win awsome heaven woot! but if you loose then your just dead and your in the ground, but thats not all that bad either cus well your dead and nothing matters anymore so technically its win win....... unless you go to hell


FUCK THE BIBLE ILL SMOKE IT, i dont believe a fucking word of that shite that isnt historically proven (there are some exceptions, killing is bad, and jesus had some good points) but i am not letting humans tell me what an infalible being wants me to do

[hellraising2150]

lol

yeah its kind of like the lottery, if you win awsome heaven woot! but if you loose then your just dead and your in the ground, but thats not all that bad either cus well your dead and nothing matters anymore so technically its win win....... unless you go to hell


FUCK THE BIBLE ILL SMOKE IT, i dont believe a fucking word of that shite that isnt historically proven (there are some exceptions, killing is bad, and jesus had some good points) but i am not letting humans tell me what an infalible being wants me to do
true if your dead your dead if not then cool to be in heaven and if you end up burning forever oh shit shouldn't have sinned all the time

[hellraising2150]

lol

yeah its kind of like the lottery, if you win awsome heaven woot! but if you loose then your just dead and your in the ground, but thats not all that bad either cus well your dead and nothing matters anymore so technically its win win....... unless you go to hell


FUCK THE BIBLE ILL SMOKE IT, i dont believe a fucking word of that shite that isnt historically proven (there are some exceptions, killing is bad, and jesus had some good points) but i am not letting humans tell me what an infalible being wants me to do
also to understand it you should look into both sides believer or not if you look at the bible instead of listening to the shit church tries to burn into you then they would have no control, control is what religious groups strive for and it is what they get when people decide to listen in fear

[JoeyxViolence]

Bible - written by men, men/women- can't be trusted....

[superflysuperwhite]

trust me ive been listening both sides for six years, i go to catholic school.
but honestly ym sophmore religion teacher taught me so much and changed my views alot, hes partially the reason for why i think the way i do today. he pretty much said theres no actuall physical god or heaven or hell, and alot more
ive read the bible cover to cover and ive made my own desicions on it, a good read but 20% stuff i will go for 80% bullshit

p.s. stop double posting

[JoeyxViolence]

I believe there is life after to death,in which you are your spirit, I think if you belive your going to heaven you will and vice versa... and if you know they don't exist then you stay on earth lol

[CoDy (A)]

Everything is made from matter. Matter can not be made or destroyed. So all matter musted of existed since the beginning of time. But what was there before planets? How was matter created?

Some people think that something supernatural like god created matter.

Me i think that since there was no matter there had to be some sort of... energy formed because there was no matter. Since the energy would be formed it would be matter. Something that has to deal with e=mc2

So most likely there is no god

[Alikiliki]

This is a pretty intense thread, there is some kind of god but i dont think he/she/it is anything like what we think it is.

[CoDy (A)]

This is a pretty intense thread, there is some kind of god but i dont think he/she/it is anything like what we think it is.


Anything like we think it is? You are suggesting if there is a "god" It would be something like maybe.... A chickin? Or something that cant think? Or maybe something never seen before....

Im just curious... what do you consider yourself? Believing in a god that is nothing like we think.

[superflysuperwhite]

see my idea of god is, like an absolute energy, not like the one portryed in any religion, becuase there all just based on previous belifes. honestly god is the only thing i belive in when i comes to that stuff. because well all religions are fucked

christians and present religions got the idea of heaven in hell from zoroastrianisim, the idea of the devil came from the babylonians, the portriat of god as an old man with a beard, came from the greeks. so any religious idea of god i will not except

[A Deo et Rege]

see my idea of god is, like an absolute energy, not like the one portryed in any religion, becuase there all just based on previous belifes. honestly god is the only thing i belive in when i comes to that stuff. because well all religions are fucked

christians and present religions got the idea of heaven in hell from zoroastrianisim, the idea of the devil came from the babylonians, the portriat of god as an old man with a beard, came from the greeks. so any religious idea of god i will not except

So you practice monotheism, not religion?

[JoeyxViolence]

As for me. I donot believe in religion either. Im with SuperFly on this one

[superflysuperwhite]

pretty much, i have my own philosophies about life and god but i can stand religion

if there is one god and there are four major religins that belive in him why cant they just agree... cus there humans, one religion says god wants this and another says god wants that, and the same thing happens within religions themselves look at chriastianity theres hundreds of branches.

im not going to let people who can even agree on what the one and only god wants.

and if god doesnt like it then, oh well, i guess ill just have to deal with it when the time comes

[JoeyxViolence]

Greed, they have their own little agendas and they use "god" as an excuse to make it seem okay to kill for their own motives....

[superflysuperwhite]

well thats just humans in general they look for any excuse to justify killing

thats why i cant wait till the dinosaurs come back in 2012, and fuck all those people, but then me and all the other believers of the truth with our cure for death will rise up and defet the dinosaurs once and for all

[A Deo et Rege]

Everything is made from matter. Matter can not be made or destroyed. So all matter musted of existed since the beginning of time. But what was there before planets? How was matter created?

Some people think that something supernatural like god created matter.

Me i think that since there was no matter there had to be some sort of... energy formed because there was no matter. Since the energy would be formed it would be matter. Something that has to deal with e=mc2

So most likely there is no god

Anything like we think it is? You are suggesting if there is a "god" It would be something like maybe.... A chickin? Or something that cant think? Or maybe something never seen before....

Im just curious... what do you consider yourself? Believing in a god that is nothing like we think.

You had it right to begin with, but after that it all went down hill. The statement that matter cannot be created or destroyed is true, yet you go further to question what was there before matter, which contradicts your first statement that matter cannot be created or destroyed; my belief is that God is a 10th dimensional being that is beyond human comprehension. The reason for my beliefs is all based on string theory, which states that matter resonates from vibrations of the 10th dimension; in other words, the entirety of existence is contained in the 10th dimension. I hope that helps shed some light on the subject.

[JoeyxViolence]

Sorry I don't believe anything that comes past the 3rd dimension, them bitches crazy!!! Lol jk man

[kaimetel]

Hey. As for me I'm a nihilist. I have no faith. I like all your opinions. The whole thing with the matter is kinda off. You should google the zero theory. Have fun.

Contra mundum

[superflysuperwhite]

im a nihlist i dont believ in anything not even nihilisim


lol not dissing you i just had to say it, dont know if youve ever seen the movie "anarchistcookbook"

or fucking th big labowski!!!


no offence but christian rock sucks, if by zero theory you meen the band

[Alikiliki]

The reason for my beliefs is all based on string theory, which states that matter resonates from vibrations of the 10th dimension; in other words, the entirety of existence is contained in the 10th dimension. I hope that helps shed some light on the subject. String theory is some really deep shit.

[CoDy (A)]

Im athiest:D

[Rasta_Man]

The string theory doenst work for me, but last I heard is that they might have an equation for the string theory. So once they get the equation, then we will know if its true or false.

[CoDy (A)]

Ive never heard of the "string theory" I think i'll have to google it.

[Sarah]

equation or no equation i believe in God.

[CoDy (A)]

Sarah.... The thread isnt "do you believe in god" Its "does god exist"

[LNT-5265F]

trust me ive been listening both sides for six years, i go to catholic school.
but honestly ym sophmore religion teacher taught me so much and changed my views alot, hes partially the reason for why i think the way i do today. he pretty much said theres no actuall physical god or heaven or hell, and alot more
ive read the bible cover to cover and ive made my own desicions on it, a good read but 20% stuff i will go for 80% bullshit

p.s. stop double posting


YES!!! i respect you terribly for this view superfly.

I am presently writing a book with an old member of this site (cuddles) in which we discuss a new concept of god as well as heaven and hell.

im me or something if your interested in such a concept as it way to complex to put in a post, haha. i think there's probably a character limit on posts


also the string theory has nothing to do with religion or theology, do your research. infact (and im not sure if its still here) but at one point i had created a thread on the string theory.... look it up. dam that was a long time ago.

[Rasta_Man]

Sarah.... The thread isnt "do you believe in god" Its "does god exist"

Whats the difference?

[Enigme]

god does not exist ...

[LNT-5265F]

Whats the difference?

the technical answer has to do with everyone living in their Individual Relative Reality. Person A believes in "God," (fact). Person B does not (fact). Just because "God" does not enter into person B's IRR, does not mean that "God" does not exist in the Collective Relative Reality, or -for that matter - in the Total Relative Reality.


those three concepts - IRR, CRR, AND TRR - are concepts in our book.

[Rasta_Man]

well if you think god exists I pretty dam sure you believe in him too.

[LNT-5265F]

haha indeed you're probably correct - but there IS still a difference, no?

and look at it the other way - just because you don't believe in him doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

[Rasta_Man]

I dont think so. The name of the thread has nothing to do how you word your ideas. If you believe in him or think hes exists... its the same thing, unless you like to split hairs.

[Rasta_Man]

But I guess you could believe in him and refuse he exists at the same time... then I think your crazy and crazy people dont count.

[LNT-5265F]

haha perhaps your correct in saying that my ideas aren't relevant to the name of the thread, but come on now, this is the third page of the thread, sense when does the third page of any thread of much to do with the original thread name on this webstie? haha

but your still not underrstanding....lets say you believe in the existance of god.

lets say i don't (that's not a factual statement, i refuse to disclose my position on the subject)

i don't believe in god, but that doesn't change the fact that he exists - as far as your concerned. and "as far as your concerned" is YOUR IRR

[Rasta_Man]

"The absence of proof, is not proof of absence." True is that, but whether God exists or not, we will never know. We will die without answers. But I dont see how people believe in something they have never seen or felt. I read the Bible and its it backwards as hell. My personal philosophies and ideas make me a good person. My immediate family are the greatest people I ever met, and maybe if you met them you would see where I get my free thinking from.

[LNT-5265F]

i commend you for coming up with your own beliefs and standing for them.

if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

[Rasta_Man]

and If you dont have legs, your just fucked ether way.

[xcharislamex]

I haven't had the chance to read through this thread, but there should definitely be a medium: "No, but it's a possibility." I'm somewhat sure that a few would change their vote if they could to that. But, I voted for "No, it's impossible."

I believe strings vibrating created everything. 8)

[LNT-5265F]

i agree with the need for account of the unknown.

but wtf, come on. don't say you agree with a theory unless you know what the theory is talking about. THE STRING THEORY DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS

[Cuddles]

I haven't had the chance to read through this thread, but there should definitely be a medium: "No, but it's a possibility." I'm somewhat sure that a few would change their vote if they could to that. But, I voted for "No, it's impossible."

I believe strings vibrating created everything. 8)

then what created the strings?

[Rasta_Man]

then what created the thing that created the strings. Its like the story that never ends.

[Sarah]

Sarah.... The thread isnt "do you believe in god" Its "does god exist"
Yes but in saying that i believe it also means, as Rasta said, that i believe he exists. dose it not?

[superflysuperwhite]

okay so ive come up with a wierd and a bit farfetched idea but in this topic anythings possible right?

well every one knows a person only uses 8% of there brain right?

well say when you die, your brian activates sort to say and its now working a 100% every thing is running full speed, know all of this we'll say "energy" for lack of a better term, feeds off your subconcious.

now here is the thing, when this all happens a whole new reality form, you are now liveing in a whole new conciousness, your imagination is takeing physical form, basically youve just created your own univers.

now depending on how you lived yourlife and every thing in your subconcious ( like say you believe that when you die you go to a place with clouds and harps and shit) this forms you "after life"

now say youve lived a bad life and are aware of it, and say you in the back of your head think of hell as a place of fire and torture, thats what your after univers becomes

now in your univers you are god you know everything that happens you can create you can destroy you are every thing and everything is you.

now this is just kinda of a summary of what the theory is, kind of a bad one cuss im better at oral explinations when it comes to this stuff, but w/e this is just an idea that poped into my hyead once

[A Deo et Rege]

This is a very interesting way of thinking of death, but it sounds highly illogical in the sense that the brain will cease to function after the neurons have all died. Most scientist believe that the near death experiences are nothing more than a dieing brain releasing a flood of dopamine to ease the pain.

[superflysuperwhite]

yeah like i said its far fetched but, if you think of it in a way that once the brain has reached 100% and has created its own reality, your consiousnes no longer excist in the world that you died so, yes your brain would be dead but only in this world

yeah its theres alot of flaws ad personaly i dont believe in it although you never know.

[Rasta_Man]

Yeah who the fuck really knows what happens when you die?

[xcharislamex]

well every one knows a person only uses 8% of there brain right?

Interesting concept, except that myth has been disproven.

but wtf, come on. don't say you agree with a theory unless you know what the theory is talking about. THE STRING THEORY DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS

I do know what the theory is talking about, LNT-5265F. Instead of just saying "no, I don't believe god exists" and just making my jolly way back to the Bullshit forum, I decided to add a snippet of what I do believe. If I wanted to discuss it or further explain, I would've gone on.

[LNT-5265F]

I do know what the theory is talking about, LNT-5265F. Instead of just saying "no, I don't believe god exists" and just making my jolly way back to the Bullshit forum, I decided to add a snippet of what I do believe. If I wanted to discuss it or further explain, I would've gone on.


so basically what you are telling us is you don't have a clue what you were talking about you just felt like adding something that might make you seem smart - but probabbly not - just to add words to you post.


you deserve to be beaten for that. wow. i am in so much shock over this that i don't know how to react. HOW CAN YOU BE SO REMARKABLY IDIOTIC!?!?!


wait wait wait, i just read that again. You believe something that you do not know the first thing about?

[xcharislamex]

so basically what you are telling us is you don't have a clue what you were talking about you just felt like adding something that might make you seem smart - but probabbly not - just to add words to you post.


you deserve to be beaten for that. wow. i am in so much shock over this that i don't know how to react. HOW CAN YOU BE SO REMARKABLY IDIOTIC!?!?!


wait wait wait, i just read that again. You believe something that you do not know the first thing about?

Perhaps you're reading something that I don't remember typing; I see that I do know what I'm talking about, but only wanted to add some substance to my post rather than having five words by adding a summary of what I believe in addition to there being no god.

I don't know why, but it looks like you just chose some random post to attempt to belittle me with. Rather than having an argument based against the integrity of my beliefs, which I shouldn't have to prove anyways, it seems like you're having an argument simply because you do not like me... which, I wouldn't mind, but don't continue a senseless argument coated with another topic.

[Rasta_Man]

I think that when we die we just give our matter back to the universe to be reused in some other form: Whether it be dirt, a part of a tree, or part of the atmosphere, anything in the universe.

[LNT-5265F]

i admit that i may have read what you wrote incorrectly..... but im not sure and im going to blame it on the fact that none of us use punctuation or grammar worth a shit on this form, so i apologize half way (?) for the rant.hahaha im giving you the benefit of the doubt ad admitting i may have made a mistake basicaly.

[Rasta_Man]

Think about this... We have no perception of anything. We don’t even know how big we really are, we can only compare our size to the things in our tiny world. We have no idea about anything. We just know the things we see, feel, taste, and hear; those are nothing compared to our animal counter parts. Being able to use electric current of our earth for guidance, s***ling things miles away, using sonar, or even seeing 360 degrees. We don’t know what any of these things feel like… I guess my point is that we have no perception of the universe. And even the all the living things on this earth dont know anything, but the thing they know... We are all stupid.

[LNT-5265F]

actually that is one of the basis' for our book. your basically just describing the collective relative reality............................kinda

[Rasta_Man]

Im basically describing my ideas

[LNT-5265F]

obviously. i was simply remarking that i see where you are coming from.

[CoDy (A)]

I think that when we die we just give our matter back to the universe to be reused in some other form: Whether it be dirt, a part of a tree, or part of the atmosphere, anything in the universe.


That is what i think. But aren't coffins that we are burried in made to be unexposed to elements? So our matter cant be reused for several hundred years.

[metal_head81]

i really dont know what to say on this topic.i mean, i dont know exacly if i do or do not believe in "god".fuck i dont even know where im going with this so im just gonna stop now.i totally lost my train of thought......

[A Deo et Rege]

THE STRING THEORY DOESN'T HAVE TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS

also the string theory has nothing to do with religion or theology, do your research. infact (and im not sure if its still here) but at one point i had created a thread on the string theory.... look it up. dam that was a long time ago.

I am not saying that string theory has anything to do with religion directly, but most scientist believe that if there was a God he would exist in the tenth dimension which string theory states, "all matter originates from vibrations of strings in the tenth dimension," if you take a liberal point of view God could be the puppet master pulling the "strings," and depending on the period of time that has passed since you posted the thread on string theory, which is as you said "a long time ago," I have been reading about it and they have made some advancements over the past few years, so your thread may be obsolete by now.

[LNT-5265F]

im no thaat old god dam it was 3 months ago or so

[A Deo et Rege]

Well, it must have been deleted because I am unable to find it.

[LNT-5265F]

it was probably in bullshit, and Massiggymann deleted the entire forum before there was a back up. this was back during the mass exodus of the senior members (mass, cuddles, amyphetamine, n20, ishkur88, me, etc.)

[Cuddles]

when all of the mods get fed up with a site, and there's a destructive stoner sitting right there who asks for their passwords, chances are a site is gonna get fucked up beyond all recognition

[LNT-5265F]

HAHA lmfao

*its so true!!!*

[r3v sparta]

ehhhh what happend to the conversation lol? now its about the forum, im lost.

[IRA Basterd]

I dont how its so hard to belive in him because you say ''Speaking biologically there is no way in hell, or anywhere, that a being of a higher plane can create something as in space and everything in it.'' its like you belive you see all that stuff right. the earth, trees, animal, all complex. i think if all this stuff is here, that its possable that there can be God. my opinion. Why is it easy for people to belive everything that they know exists, all the craziest fuckin shit, but cant belive somthing "crazy" like a higher being? i dont get people.

[CoDy (A)]

If god exists i dont like his idea of we have to go to church 1- 3 times a weak to worship him. Thats like creating a site and trying to tell everyone to go to your site every sunday and wednsday or your going to hell.

Seeing is believing (unless you can prove it is there), You cannot prove god is there.

[superflysuperwhite]

well its people who say you have to go to church

[Palm3R]

ok... put it this way. I'm sure people said it like... 1000 times already (since theres TOO MANY RELIGION THREADS).
you can't prove god does exist, you can't prove god does not exist...

that's the problem, it's just a belief, there isn't really anything to argue about. it's either you beleive in God, or you don't. there is no arguement...

I'm sick of seeing threads on religion. when the mods see them, they should just delete them right away...

[Rasta_Man]

shut the hell up palmer.

[superflysuperwhite]

well he is right but w/e i wanna be cool

SHUT THE FUCK UP PALMER!!!

[Sarah]

If god exists i dont like his idea of we have to go to church 1- 3 times a weak to worship him. Thats like creating a site and trying to tell everyone to go to your site every sunday and wednsday or your going to hell.

Seeing is believing (unless you can prove it is there), You cannot prove god is there.

I go to church once a week and no i really don't think you have to go to church 3 times a week or your going to hell who says that. Thats madness. I go once a week and to most of the holy days of obligation but thats it I won't be in there daily i mean theres nothing wrong with doing that if you want to but yeah i'm kind of a busy person.
doubting Thomas eh? or rather in this case doubting Cody. For some seeing is believing i wouldn't believe he was dead till i watched them putting him in the ground thats the way it is sometimes but when it comes to God i don't need to see to believe because for me i can see to much to support him. Others may not but, after you live life for a while, lose some people, some things for that matter, you really have to have someone there to listen other wise i dunno your a like walking time bomb. Thats how i see it.

[r3v sparta]

hmmm, how about we sticky this one, and keep it at that.

[Ganja101]

Ok i am answering the original question.

People need a god. There is nothing that supports a god besides ideas and beliefs. Think about what would happen if it was suddenly believed world wide that god and no higher being existed. I would say, mass murder genocide chaos and anarchy. I believe the government knows that religon is important because it helps keep people sane. I believe it helps keep world order in maybe even a little way. Like there are two reasons i would not kill another man. Being thrown in jail, and the possibility of going to hell.

[Sarah]

I wouldn't kill a man, not because i'd be worried about being chucked in jail, ok yeah i guess that is a reason, but not because i'd be worried about going to hell. I'd be more worried about the mark of a mortal sin imprinted on my soul and then having to face God with his bolts of lightning! lol. God is forgiving he had the power to make us, the earth and everything else so then he also has the power to forgive. You just have to know what you did was wrong, truly be sorry for it, and ask for and be willing to receive forgiveness.

[Rasta_Man]

...Think about what would happen if it was suddenly believed world wide that god and no higher being existed. I would say, mass murder genocide chaos and anarchy. I believe the government knows that religon is important because it helps keep people sane...

These things are already happening and have always happened. Sometimes with the help of religion.

[babybitch]

I know rite religion is actually the cause of alot of the chaos and "mass murder"....A lot of it is because some one doesnt believe someones religion....So to get rid of the "non-believer" what do you do you kill them....I mean that is the way some are taught....And I know someone who said to kill a "non-believer" would be cleansing the world of the filth... I mean come on is religion all that good anyways...??????

[superflysuperwhite]

well its not really kill the non-believer" its "kill the fuckers who dont belive the same way we do"

[babybitch]

okay okay if u want to be technical yes that is right....lol but i do know some one who believes that...and i think it suxs personally

[Palm3R]

shut the hell up palmer.

like I said, you can't argue it, so you just say "shut up..." go ahead and keep trying to argue about God...
...but like I said, it's either you belive in god or you don't. that's it...

[r3v sparta]

Ok look,

Seriously, I think the bible is just a story told by our ancestors that we shouldnt do bad things. Practically like a karma thing.

Its just a long, passed down tale.

You'd be better off watching barney or something lol

[Cuddles]

no one cares what you believe the bible is.

[Rasta_Man]

like I said, you can't argue it, so you just say "shut up..." go ahead and keep trying to argue about God...
...but like I said, it's either you belive in god or you don't. that's it...

Im wasn’t telling you to shut up for believing in god. Im not like that, but I told you to shut up because you said that these religion threads should be deleted, when threads like this are the most intellectual types and we need more like this.

[r3v sparta]

No, Why dont we just sticky this one, and delete further ones after it lol

Problem Solved.

[A Deo et Rege]

I know rite religion is actually the cause of alot of the chaos and "mass murder"....A lot of it is because some one doesnt believe someones religion....So to get rid of the "non-believer" what do you do you kill them....I mean that is the way some are taught....And I know someone who said to kill a "non-believer" would be cleansing the world of the filth... I mean come on is religion all that good anyways...??????

well its not really kill the non-believer" its "kill the fuckers who dont belive the same way we do"

Not all religion is this way, most religious groups are pacifist, it is only the radical religious groups that cause the problems. The radicals take the religious texts of their particular religion and interpret them to extremist views, which most often leads to a completely new religion, like the radicals of Islam. An example of a pacifist religion would be the Buddhist monks, their religion doesn't allow them to harm any living thing, yet they are being killed in Burma because they are peacefully protesting the rule of the military junta that controls their country, and they have not fought back even though they have been attacked, and some have been killed.

[Cuddles]

those who deify the buddha are making a terrible mistake. it was meant to be a philosophy, not a religion.


beside the point...all major religions preach non-violence, but there will always be extremists (personally, i'd not call them that, it's a media term, and it doesnt make sense, because you'd think that means they follow their doctrine more closely, but it means pretty near the opposite, basically that they defend their doctrine even if that means breaking it)....if it werent religion, it would be political...and i know you probably cant see a republican terrorist group, but....well, look up the IRA....

waiiit, why am i posting? eh

-sips green tea and listens to punk rock-

[Rasta_Man]

Even the Buddhists went threw a time of murder... I think every single religion has at one point.
I have a quote that I put up earlier in this thread that, I think, relates to extremists point of view.... let me find it and re-post it.

[Rasta_Man]

A man got religion, and asked the priest what he must do to be worthy of his new estate. The priest said, "Imitate our Father in Heaven, and learn to be like him." The man studied his Bible diligently and thoroughly and understandingly, and then with prayers for heavenly guidance instituted his imitations. He tricked his wife into falling downstairs, and she broke her neck and became a paralytic for life; he betrayed his brother into the hands of a sharper, who robbed him of his all and landed him in the almshouse; he inoculated one son with hookworms, and other with sleeping sickness, another with gonorrhea; he furnished one daughter with scarlet fever and ushered her into her teens deaf, dumb, and blind for life; and after helping a rascal seduce the remaining one, he closed his doors against her and she died in a brothel cursing him. Then he reported to the priest, who said that that was no way to imitate his Father in Heaven. The convert asked wherein he had failed, but the priest changed the subject and inquired what kind of weather he was having, up his way.

[Cuddles]

provide evidence that the buddhists ever went through a time of murder.

what you could potentially be thinking of--and i very seriously doubt you even KNOW about this, although if you did, making the mistake of referencing it would be possible..is at the fall of the last chinese empire, when chairman mao started burning all religious works--including that of the buddhists to an extent because the chinese deify buddha (funny how they do that, take an indian philosophy and make it a religion)....but that wasnt the buddhists killing, that was the buddhists being killed, and it's been that way over and over again for them...name one buddhist extremist (the concept itself is kind of absurd)

[Rasta_Man]

Ok I will give you evidence, I need to look first. But I know that the Buddhists did kill people. Recently too, like in the 70' - 80's I think... maybe a bit earlier. Yes I already knew that Chinese religion was helped destroyed; along with Taoism, Confucianism, and others that we dont know about im sure.

[Rasta_Man]

Buddhist Thai soldiers ordered to stop abusing Muslim Thai women
Thailand has a large Muslim population in the Southern Thailand. The majority of the armed forces in Thailand is composed of Buddhist soldiers. The Southern Thailand is not a peaceful area. The Muslim population is revolting against Buddhist Thai authorities. The Thai soldiers have shown some of the most ruthless behavior in the recent history. The human rights abuse is high is this area.
Thai soldiers have received strict orders to leave Thai Muslim women alone after Muslim leaders complained to the Thai Government that some Thai soldiers have engaged in improper sexual relations with young Muslim women, a Thai army spokesman said May 25 in Bangkok. Hundreds of complaints about improper relationships between Buddhist troops and Muslim women have been reported in the mainly Muslim provinces of Narathiwat, Yala and Pattani.
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/2864.asp

Here is one example, but not the one I was looking for. I was watching this thing where to 2 groups of Buddhists started fighting, I think a couple of people were hurt and killed. But is impossible for anyone to say that violence does not affect them or the people that they associate themselves with.

[HIM/CKYlife]

Well, according to Taoism, every man must find his own spiritual journey.

And I don't think God should be referred to as "him." I don't believe God is a tangible item and so how can God have gender?

why do we call a snowman a snowMAN. its tecnicaly not either but him is just basic its where the slang word 'em came from it just meen s that person

[A Deo et Rege]

why do we call a snowman a snowMAN. its tecnicaly not either but him is just basic its where the slang word 'em came from it just meen s that person

Your spelling is deplorable, but you do have a valid point; what is it with gender association, why do we gender to that which has none; for example, I have a friend who I let drive my new truck, and he said, "she handles like a dream"--it's a truck, why in the world would you give it gender, much less a feminine gender. Enough of that, back to the matter at hand, theology, if God had a gender what would it be? My personal opinion is that God would be a man--that is if god can have a gender, but would it not be more logical for God to be a woman, and rationally speaking God probably has no gender because how can an incomprehensible being have a comprehensible gender?

[superflysuperwhite]

him/cky..... i thought you were dead

when did you come back

[Cuddles]

that's called hoping, not thinking, superfly


as to the buddhist thai soldiers--they're not buddhist extremists, cuz if they were, they wouldnt be fuckin soldiers.....and really, it's just like any other religion--you wake up, and you worship--in thailand....give me that example of actual monks fighting eachother and then maybe ill be inclined to believe you.

[Rasta_Man]

What? Buddhist soldiers, as in indorsed by Buddhists. Buddhists have had soldiers to protect them, if you know your religion you would know that. Ever hear of the Buddhist Shoaling Monks? Those guys practice martial arts and back in the day killed to defend themselves. But your right I will find some things on Buddhists groups fighting. If you acually looked yourself you would find that Buddhists have killed, just like everyone else.

[Cuddles]

individual buddhists have killed just like everyone else, yes, but they're not religiously endorsed. also, im not the one who needs to prove your point, you are. and they're THAI soldiers, who happen to be buddhists because that's pretty much the dominant religion in thailand--to the point where im not aware of any other religions in any major political positions there.

[Rasta_Man]

Well here are two videos of Buddhists monks fighting each other. I cant watch them cause my computer is fucked, but here you go.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH9pTer7ekI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZT2eJezM

[Rasta_Man]

War
By BBC Team

Buddhism and war
Non-violence is at the heart of Buddhist thinking and behaviour. The first of the five precepts that all Buddhists should follow is "Avoid killing, or harming any living thing."

Buddhism is essentially a peaceful tradition. Nothing in Buddhist scripture gives any support to the use of violence as a way to resolve conflict.

In times of war Give rise in yourself to the mind of compassion, Helping living beings Abandon the will to fight.
One of Buddha's sermons puts this very clearly with a powerful example that stresses the need to love your enemy no matter how cruelly he treats you:

Even if thieves carve you limb from limb with a double-handed saw, if you make your mind hostile you are not following my teaching.
Figures like the Dalai Lama (who won the Nobel Peace Prize) demonstrate in word and deed Buddhism's commitment to peace.

"Hatred will not cease by hatred, but by love alone. This is the ancient law."
Many Buddhists have refused to take up arms under any circumstances, even knowing that they would be killed as a result. The Buddhist code that governs the life of monks permits them to defend themselves, but it forbids them to kill, even in self-defence.

For Buddhist countries this poses the difficult dilemma of how to protect the rights and lives of their citizens without breaking the principle of nonviolence.

The pure Buddhist attitude is shown in this story:

A Vietnam veteran was overheard rebuking the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, about his unswerving dedication to non-violence.

"You're a fool," said the veteran - "what if someone had wiped out all the Buddhists in the world and you were the last one left. Would you not try to kill the person who was trying to kill you, and in doing so save Buddhism?!"

Thich Nhat Hanh answered patiently "It would be better to let him kill me. If there is any truth to Buddhism and the Dharma it will not disappear from the face of the earth, but will reappear when seekers of truth are ready to rediscover it.

"In killing I would be betraying and abandoning the very teachings I would be seeking to preserve. So it would be better to let him kill me and remain true to the spirit of the Dharma."

Buddhism and martial arts
Buddhist monks have been leaders in developing various forms of martial arts. The Shaolin Order is perhaps the best known of these, famed for their fighting prowess.

Martial arts would seem to be about as far from non-violence as you can get, but Buddhist forms of martial arts have very strict rules about how violence can be used.

The Shaolin teaching forbids the monk from ever being the aggressor, and instructs him to use only the minimum necessary defensive force. By becoming skilled in physical conflict the monk has a better understanding of violence and is able to use sophisticated techniques to avoid harm, ranging from simple parrying of clumsy blows to paralysing grips and knockout blows in the face of extreme violence - but always using only the amount of force needed to refuse the violence that is being offered to them.

Most martial arts traditions have strong spiritual and philosophical elements, and insist on a responsible and minimalist attitude to violence.

---->Buddhism and violence<----
But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China
in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters
In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb.
In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/buddhistethics/war.shtml

[Rasta_Man]

Theres is my proof, I knew I would eventually find it.

[bengron]

I think Jesus was a cool dude but ll this fucked up heaven and hell shit is just so that people have power over you.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED UP!!!

[bengron]

I'm Buddhist unofficially, but its awesome cuz it isn't trying to make you do anything, it just helps you out and makes you peaceful and happy. Read Buddhism Plain And Simple if you get a chance.

[A Deo et Rege]

I have a question for the more intellectually inclined members of the site; does the year 2012 hold any significance, or is it just another year in history--well, future history? The date may not seem that important, but if you know your history you would know that it does hold great importance. The reason for my inquiry into this specific year is that I would like to know what other people know about the controversy surrounding this particular year. If you have no idea as to what I am talking about, feel free to ask, I will gladly enlighten you.

[superflysuperwhite]

well i think its going to be a year when the "world as we know it" ends not as in all existence ending as in the apocolypse but a revilation of though i guess. iunno how to explain but its not the end of the phgysical world but more of im drawing a blank on what i want to say but i think you might get the point

honestly i dont think too much will realy happen, but if it does then im set 4 more years is enough to live life to the fullest

[A Deo et Rege]

I see what you are saying, it is not the literal "end of the world," just the end of the world as it is now. The thing I find surprising is that a great number of people think that the end of the world means that it will no longer exist, but the likelihood of this happening is slim at best. If you think about it, it could be the new renaissance--could it not?

[superflysuperwhite]

exactly...........

[vicious-vegan]

Whether God does exist or doesn't, does it really matter all in all?

Why should we be concerned about the afterlife?

I'm not going to deny it, I do think about it sometimes. I'm just asking.

[superflysuperwhite]

well because, if a plane were to say, crash into your house killing you right now, im sure you would probably be concernd.

also its quite the interesting topic of discussion.

also the fact that every one does die (which will change once i find the cure for death) makes it matter because wouldnt you like to know what happens after death.

that also goes for people close to you, wouldnt you want to know if they exist in some way or another, other then a dead body

[vicious-vegan]

yeah, and if you can go to hell you'd make sure to be "good" so you can be sent to heaven- I suppose.

Basically I'm not worried about it so much, because I don't know for a fact that God is real. So I'm not worried usually.

[superflysuperwhite]

well all depends on a persons preception of good.
i say smokeing bud is okay, others say its evil.
i say being gay is okay, others say its evil.
i eat as much meat as possible on good friday, others say im going to hell

i mean look at charles manson, he belives he has never done anything wrong, granted hes never killed a person but hes basically responsible for brain washing a group of teens, who did commit the murders

[A Deo et Rege]

I am just going to add to what superfly said. The reason for the concern about the afterlife is that if our tiny insignificant existence on this planet in the proverbial infinite sea of the universe is all there is, then we have no reason to live and strive to make things better because in the end we will die and it will no longer matter, so if there isn't an afterlife, life is just an exercise in futility. To add to that and answer the question about God, if you believe in an afterlife you more than likely believe in a God; I would think the two would go hand-in-hand--would they not?

P.S. superfly if you do find the proverbial elixir of life, don't keep me in the dark:D

[superflysuperwhite]

not exactly, a person could have the belife of excisting in a whole new conciousness, and just that, no god no heaven or hell, just a new plain of existance.

[vicious-vegan]

well all depends on a persons preception of good.
i say smokeing bud is okay, others say its evil.
i say being gay is okay, others say its evil.
i eat as much meat as possible on good friday, others say im going to hell

i mean look at charles manson, he belives he has never done anything wrong, granted hes never killed a person but hes basically responsible for brain washing a group of teens, who did commit the murders

When I say "good" (one reason that I had quotation marks around it), I meant according to religious standards.

[superflysuperwhite]

FUCK RELIGIONS THEY DONT KNOW SHIT!!!!!

thats basically what im saying religion tells you to stay away from premarital sex, drugs, ect. but that may be a tottaly different perseption then of another persons.

religion is shit, they all believe in the same god yet none believe the other knows what there taliking about, if anyonme is going to hell its these religious selfritious fucks whoo say they know a lick about god and what he wants

especially when there the onse saying god is infallible and beyond comprehension, if thats true then how the fuck can they know what it wants

i believe in god and thats it, religion can go suck it!

[vicious-vegan]

I'm not defending religion. I'm just saying that a lot of people look at the bible and take it as the truth even though it's sexist, homophobic, and oppressive.

Though Jesus isn't bad, I admit.

[A Deo et Rege]

not exactly, a person could have the belife of excisting in a whole new conciousness, and just that, no god no heaven or hell, just a new plain of existance.

you are correct in your reasoning, but when the afterlife is mentioned more often than not there is also mention of some higher being, a.k.a. God, that controls this "paradise."

[vicious-vegan]

"God, that controls this "paradise." "

Exactly

[superflysuperwhite]

@ Deo: yes i totally agree, i was just simply stateing that there are some exceptions, i like to play the devils advocate

@ vegan: yes and like i said they are idiots, especially the evangalist who believe that the world is only 5000 something years old

the bible is one of the most edited pieces of crap ever, every book in there has been hand picked. there are hundreds of gospels some even stateing that jesus as a child killed people, but do you see those in the bible no.

also revilations, any one who thinks thats true is fucked in the head, all that was supposed to happen 64yrs after it was written, i think over a thousand of years ago.

and thats just christianity and really only a few branches hell they cant even agree on there own religion

[A Deo et Rege]

I'm not defending religion. I'm just saying that a lot of people look at the bible and take it as the truth even though it's sexist, homophobic, and oppressive.

Though Jesus isn't bad, I admit.

That is the first time that the name Jesus has been mentioned in this thread--I think. That name opens the door to a whole new field of discussion. Did this man exist? Was he the son of God? What significance does his life hold for humanity?

I await your rebuttal, superfly.

[vicious-vegan]

haha, yeah, I know what you mean.

Jesus killed as a child? Intense. We can't really know what that kid did.

[vicious-vegan]

That is the first time that the name Jesus has been mentioned in this thread--I think. That name opens the door to a whole new field discussion. Did this man exist? Was he the son of God? What significance does his life hold for humanity?



Since my family is Catholic I have heard a thing or two about Jesus. Actually I read the teachings of Jesus. I don't know about him personally, but the things he said in the bible were good, in my opinion.

[superflysuperwhite]

yes jesus did excist, its stated in historical documents by none religious people.

the gospel that state jesus killed as a child was i think the gospel of marry. it said that jesus was playing, and he made these birds and braught them to life, another boy cam across this and destroyed the birds. jesuse got mad and well "smited", then god told him that was bad and i assume that was the last of it.

now him being the son of god hm, well christians are the only ones to believe this, all others do aknowledge that he was alive and was even a prophet.

do i bielive he was the "son: of god... sure because ARNT WE ALL PRODUCTS OF "GOD" now him being god, could be quite possible, hell god could easily be anyone, but it all depends on the time and place god chooses to show its self.

When jesus was around people, science was a very small field, hell certian things could even get you killed so people were more prone to listen to some one who said he was the son of god then they would be today. so yes he could have possibly been god, if not he was deffinatly a profet.

[A Deo et Rege]

I applaud your intellectual reply. http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee45/adeoetrege1/clapping.gif I don't believe I can add anything to that without taking away from its meaning.

[superflysuperwhite]

well i thank you, hell six years of catholic school and personal research on every apsect of religion, i should be able to give a pretty decent reply. lol

like i previously stated this is all very interesting subject matter, one of the greates controversise of all time, for both believers and non belivers.

its one of my favorite topics so yeah, if i feel the need i can give a rather good... iunno i keep on drwring blanks on what im going to say lol

[FatalB]

does it truly matter? in my mind, i don't give a flying fuck. if there is some higher being who created the universe and all that dwells within then hooray... but if not, then it doesn't really matter does it? when you think logically there are mainly 2 options.

Option#1
god is real = holy shit we've been fucked!

Option#2
God is not real= Holy shit we fucked ourselves!

and all thats left is to die and enjoy an eternity of unawareness, not knowing that future generations shall be flamed on this very site for years to come.

... awesome

[r3v sparta]

lol 20 vs 20 votes.

[Jonathan89]

I dont believe in god but I know angels are real.

[A Deo et Rege]

I dont believe in god but I know angels are real.

:eek::confused::eek:
That statement makes absolutely no sense, or at least it doesn't to me. If anyone can make any sense of this please enlighten me. I would think that angels and God would go hand in hand, but I could be wrong.

[A Deo et Rege]

does it truly matter? in my mind, i don't give a flying fuck. if there is some higher being who created the universe and all that dwells within then hooray... but if not, then it doesn't really matter does it? when you think logically there are mainly 2 options.

Option#1
god is real = holy shit we've been fucked!

Option#2
God is not real= Holy shit we fucked ourselves!

and all thats left is to die and enjoy an eternity of unawareness, not knowing that future generations shall be flamed on this very site for years to come.

... awesome

I have an addition:

Option #3

God is neither "real" nor "fake," God just is. God is a higher dimensional being. We are immersed in this higher dimension without any knowledge of its existence. This would somewhat explain how God is omnipresent, but not entirely( to lengthy to explain ). We are all part of a divine plan( Manifest Destiny). If this is true then we are just a drop in the proverbial river of time, and we might as well go with the flow.


I await your constructive criticism, and pleas make it constructive not destructive.

[Cuddles]

:eek::confused::eek:
That statement makes absolutely no sense, or at least it doesn't to me. If anyone can make any sense of this please enlighten me. I would think that angels and God would go hand in hand, but I could be wrong.

god and angels are not mutually inclusive by any means--in current belief systems, they are, but that is not to say they must be. however, what he said could be used as a pickup line at an atheist convention: "i dont believe in god, but i believe in angels, im looking right at one" (yes, im that bored.)

essentially, he could be saying that he believes in fairies, it's almost the same concept, only angels are considered the helpers of god, and fairies are just considered good or evil little critters that live in forests

I have an addition:

Option #3

God is neither "real" nor "fake," God just is. God is a higher dimensional being. We are immersed in this higher dimension without any knowledge of its existence. This would somewhat explain how God is omnipresent, but not entirely( to lengthy to explain ). We are all part of a divine plan( Manifest Destiny). If this is true then we are just a drop in the proverbial river of time, and we might as well go with the flow.


I await your constructive criticism, and pleas make it constructive not destructive.

you got go with the flow stuck in my head, thanks

and no, i dont believe in destiny--and manifest destiny is not what you mean to say, because

Manifest Destiny:

"a political philosophy common among American statesman and business leaders in the nineteenth century that held that United States was destined to, or deserved to, conquer the heart of North America from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean
www3.newberry.org/k12maps/glossary/index.html"

...you get this now?

i believe that the only destiny that exists is that which is the collective consequences of the decisions made by all of humanity, with the addition of some quantum randomness (which is proving to be less and less random as we go), not some divine will.

and why go with the flow when you can create a new flow?

to believe in destiny means i have to believe that that rapist was destined to rape, in which case, it's morally wrong to punish him, as he had no control over what would cause him to become a rapist.

[A Deo et Rege]

god and angels are not mutually inclusive by any means--in current belief systems, they are, but that is not to say they must be. however, what he said could be used as a pickup line at an atheist convention: "i dont believe in god, but i believe in angels, im looking right at one" (yes, im that bored.)

essentially, he could be saying that he believes in fairies, it's almost the same concept, only angels are considered the helpers of god, and fairies are just considered good or evil little critters that live in forests


I agree with your statement that angels and God are not mutually inclusive, yet I still think they are in some means connected because, after all, they originate from religion so they must be connected; before religion the word angel did not even exist--this is just stated from what I know, but I could be misinformed.

You also said that angels are the helpers of God, so thus you said they are a dependant of God, so would not that mean that the existence of one is dependant on the other.

you got go with the flow stuck in my head, thanks

and no, i dont believe in destiny--and manifest destiny is not what you mean to say, because

Manifest Destiny:

"a political philosophy common among American statesman and business leaders in the nineteenth century that held that United States was destined to, or deserved to, conquer the heart of North America from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean
www3.newberry.org/k12maps/glossary/index.html"

...you get this now?

i believe that the only destiny that exists is that which is the collective consequences of the decisions made by all of humanity, with the addition of some quantum randomness (which is proving to be less and less random as we go), not some divine will.

and why go with the flow when you can create a new flow?

to believe in destiny means i have to believe that that rapist was destined to rape, in which case, it's morally wrong to punish him, as he had no control over what would cause him to become a rapist.

Instead of Manifest Destiny I meant to say predetermined destiny, meaning that all events have be predetermined by God, and the future is only the unfolding of Gods plan. I don't believe this, but you would be surprised how many do. The reason I find this hard to believe is that it would eliminate free will because no matter what you do your fate is already sealed, which logically speaking would make life pointless. If your fate is predetermined it would make following the religion nonessential in acquiring the rewards mentioned by the religion. Logically speaking, predetermined destiny is an oxymoron because it contradicts itself; without free will, and the freedom to make choices life would be nonessential to afterlife.

I await your rebuttal, or your commentary, whichever you see fit.

[superflysuperwhite]

darn you already shot down the idea of destiny.... thats what i wanted to do

AND WITH THE SAME ARGUEMENT NO LESS!!!

[A Deo et Rege]

Great minds think alike--do they not?:D

[Cuddles]

unfortunately, i would not be surprised AT ALL how many people believe in destiny.

also, you merely restated my argument, i have no rebuttal, you merely stated my argument relevant to religion instead of social (dis)order.

great minds think alike, and fools never differ.

[Palm3R]

life sucks either way... with or without god...

[greenslime]

I have read the bible from start to finish more thn once and I can tell you that it 'flat out lies'. It did to me anyway.

[superflysuperwhite]

the bibles a good read but im not gonna take an real life lesons from it

and palmer life is awsome! ive had what some might consider a bit of a fucked up life but i LOVE!

its the ultamit adventure!

[SuperSkunk]

I think all living beings together are a little piece of god. The ability to have the choice to take a life. Just know you have the power to do that makes you feel like you have the ability to influence someone else greatly. (never killed anyone before)

[lovindahaze]

wtf happend to my posts?

[Cuddles]

quit fucking reviving threads?

[chillalien]

I simply believe that the beings we consider "gods" are simply bigger living beings, just like we could be gods for Acarians or other species of really smal living things

[Ich Bin Gott]

Like ants?

[The Devils Child]

Well, according to Taoism, every man must find his own spiritual journey.

And I don't think God should be referred to as "him." I don't believe God is a tangible item and so how can God have gender?

i know what your saying, its just like people from the KKK think that god (if it exsists) is white, but in bruce almighty and evan almighty god is black, so those guys are fucking screwed if gods is black

[Silver_Rose]

Here's just a random thought I had while doing a bit of tripping once:

God is merely a sentient law of the universe. Wrap your head around that one. It might not be true, or make much sense, but it's a fun path to wander down for a bit.

[PowerstrokeSS]

I kinda like that idea Silver Rose. But its an intersting thought

[bigjz420]

Jesus was a rockstar

[squirrel masta]

youve completely left out an agnostic side of things were its not just god excists and god doesnt excist. agnostics state that there are limits to the sphere of human intelligence. no one can deny that. but agnostics also state that the knowlegde of a higher being is beyond a human shpere of intelligence. so the dogmatic faithful are blind, and the dogmatic atheist is closeminded.

[Palm3R]

I've seen so many religion threads or threads about god, it's not even funny...

[PowerstrokeSS]

too many religions, too many freaks - they all cause too many problems, bitching whos better or whos right, fuck religion

[AvengedX7]

I believe in god but then i dont. There are aspects that i believe in and aspects that i say theres no fucking way to. The only way to find out is through death. You willing to find out?

[PowerstrokeSS]

When you die there is nothing. I can only relate it to sleep, theres nothing there at all. You dont even know it happened. I know.

[AvengedX7]

I did a California High once,(its when you get light headed and somneone puts u up against a wall and you pass out if they push u up hard enough. Anyways, i passed out and I woke up 5 seconds later, but it felt like a day. I woke up and started crying because it felt like i was dead and the feeling was like there was no hope and i felt like i was falling into an abyss. So now thats what i think Hell is like

[SuperSkunk]

I call that a space monkey. I did it a few years ago. Almost died doing it too. It incredibly stupid.

[AlbertWesker]

God (Jesus) lives inside of me and showers me with unconditional love and mercy he also blesses me richly eventhough I often give him nothing but crap!

[AlbertWesker]

The talmud and the dead sea scrolls are copies of the old testament which were written about one thousand years apart (Which might make you think that they would have huge differences) but actually they only have 5 diffs between them and they are only spelling diffs (to me it sound like God is preserving his word)!

[Lunni_P65]

I believe a high power may be real but religion is bullshit thats why we all get confused of the existence of god. there is no better way to get to him. i had a fucked up dream where a dead friend of mine came to me and i saw his face( anyone who knows anything about dreams, would know that if u see the face a dead person it mya mean that he or she is contacting you or you are gonna die idk im mexican)
and my friend told me dont worry, people get into heaven more than you think. cum to think about it i just had that dream last night.... now im tripped the fuck out....

[A Deo et Rege]

Lol.....he said cum!! :D I'm sooo bored.

.../\
<Deo>
...\/

[Palm3R]

haha! he did! I'm bored too...

I feel like banning someone... I'm gonna ban whats-his-name for making that retarded thread about obama...

[ww3sabitur]

ok did u no that all the religons are all the same up to a sertan date?
and that theres some bull shit about it on tv now days

get it rite ppl there is no god well there is.....sniper jesus

[SuperSkunk]

Q. What would Jesus do?

A. He would smite you and send you to hell.

[in3b]

its just as possible as an other religion

[A Deo et Rege]

its just as possible as an other religion

What.....who.....why.......please explain. :confused:



http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh144/DeusRexRegis/Emoticons/Deo1.jpg

[in3b]

its just as possible as an other religion
the existence of god vs other religion

[Cuddles]

the existence of god vs other religion

............considering every other Religion (by my definition, religion is inclusive of the concept of god, im sorry if you dont take it that way, i do. hence, buddhism is not a religion, evolution is not a religion, but christianity, hinduism, judaism, and islam are all religions) argues the existence of some god, yes.....the existence of god is just as possible as the existence of god. your point?

that doesnt at all say how possible it is.

[in3b]

the topic 'does god exist?' and the poll being
'yes, i believe in him'
OR
'no it's impossible'
is where i got the its just as possible as any other religion

[Buddha]

You guys have lost me.
Anyway, I refuse to vote in the poll cause there should be at least one more option. This shit's not that black and white. Seriously.

[Revelations 1:1]

It is my firm belief that there is indred a God but that he is not the all powerfull omnipresent being that religeon portrays him as. In this thread it seems that religeon and God are one. they are not a religeon is a group of folower who have come together to worship their own interpretation of the Almighty, God is an independant being so just because Christians say you will go to hell for disobeying their God does not make it true unless the Almighty himself decides that thats what he wants, maybe he likes reincarnation, or oblivion. So yes there is a God, but he is not represented by any one religeon in his entirety

[superflysuperwhite]

^^^^^^^^ thank you!

[iknew]

I agree, religion and god are separate. Although, i believe that we are each our own god, and this concept of a higher power is reinforcement in a natural feeling to have something to confide in. Since we don't know anyone, and what their thinking, people look to something that would accept them and be there for them. And thus god. And in terms of all religions, i don't feel that their gods would be as cruel and UNforgiving as they seem. People just want to put there views on you. Religion is just a big game of convincing/lies/deceit.

[A Deo et Rege]

I had a thought that I would like to share; Science and Religion are just two ends to the same road, and no matter which path you take the outcome stays the same, so why are we limited to just one, why not both; I believe it is possible for both to coexist without one contradicting the other; if you think about it, science actually adds more depth to religion, but that's just my point of view; what about yours?


http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh144/DeusRexRegis/Emoticons/Deo1.jpg

[Rotterdamn]

Its all in your head. I don't really know what i believe.

[LNT-5265F]

scientology ftw!