Prove It: An Open Question

[ramalamafafafa]

Prove to me existance of a tangible god or higher power. Quotes from religious texts, theists and other nutters are not proof.

No proof of god exists, or has ever been presented. Therefore, no god exists. If the Church or the Churchgoers wish to make wild claims, they must be expected to present evidence. The Church exerts untold amounts of power over Western Society, in daily life and Government Policymaking. Why? Their power is justified and based on claims of communication with a God. There is no God.


Even Gautama Buddha urged doubt in the existance of a higher power:

"It is proper for you, Kalamas [the people of the village of Kesaputta], to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them.


Go on, prove me wrong.

[KusKus]

my bumb ass brain dousnt understand

[superflysuperwhite]

where is the absolute proof that it doesnt exist? and i don't mean the christian/muslim/jewish god. i mean an ultimate creator.

i mean if you are looking for equations or numbers i believe there is actually one people are working on

you could say the fact that there are obvious bounderies and laws. I mean there's no walking through wall or w/e. and yes that is physics or you know "god's writen law" the real "laws of god" not the ten comandment bullshit. I mean a bird doesnt grow into a tree and we can't shoot lasers out of our eyes.


also if you are going to tell everyone that religious people have no bareing in this, then why the hell are you useing one?

knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

[itismesaj]

Oh, and if a theist is someone who believes in God, then why would an atheist write something in favor of a God? Your logic is flawed, ramalamafafafa.

[RuthlessMan]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[sumoman888]

It goes either way you. People say "god doesnt exist because there is no proof that he exist" Then other say it the other way round. I myself have massive doubts about a "supreme being" I can read a bible than read a book on string theory or other theories of physics and they seem to make more sense than anything a church has ever written.

[freetibet]

You want proof of god?!!? i'll give ya proof...

BEHOLD!! THE ATHEIST NIGHTMARE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A

[bcguardian0]

That reminds me of a story someone in my ward (mormon word for congregation) told me. He was out hunting with his dad one day when the oddest question seemed to pop into his head. He turned to his father and asked, "Dad. Do you believe in God?" His father's answer, who was never one to care much about religion, startled him. He got right down in his face and said. "Can you make a tree?"
He said something else, but I can't remember it well enough to do it justice so I won't try to quote the rest. I can't prove that there is a God, but neither can you disprove His existence. It will remain an impass between the believers and non-believers, until something incredible happens that'll prove one of them wrong. That's religion for you.

[superflysuperwhite]

KEEP RELIGION OUT OF "GOD"!!!!!!!

i cannot stress that enough. most religions are based on the idea that "god" is a big father figure in the sky that has an active part in humanity.

not everyone believes this. people believe there is a "god" but not in the way religion does.



and to go along with freetibet's idea (for how ever long you've been here i always see your name a freebit.)

in this vast universe and even planet with millions of things in, on, and around everything, there is a shit load of.... conveniences.

you get sick say with a stomach bug... you dont nesisarily need to go to the doctors.. there are plants and other naturally occuring things that can help with that.

ALSO for the very most part (honestly not sure there are exceptions but) all life needs water.

also, all life is quite similar, everything needs energy. most animals have cetain food that they need to have.. all conveniently somewhere on the plant. eveolution and adaption right? well yeah but why? it seems like once a species has found that life sustaining pattern they need to follow evolution somewhat slows.. but it also has never been all that drastic, i mean beside the obvious transition from sea to land.. but, when the first creature did come onto land, it obviously had something to sustain itself, and how is the body to know what it can use in a place which it has never been.

just some free flowing thought, not really podered to much but still a thought.

[Zamato Elite]

Let's look at this argument logically for a second:
You are right, religions have failed to provide evidence to god's existence. Therefore, we have reason to believe God does NOT exist. Every claim is automatically fighting against the argument "The Lack of Evidence is Evidence" because every claim is constrained with the burden of proof.

Let's create an example:
Person A: "Magic Pink Unicorns exist."

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "Prove that it doesn't exist."

Person B: "I can't."

Person A: "Then the magical pink unicorn exists!"

This is the logic of theism and "strong atheism", and it is horribly flawed. Person A has the burden of proof because he made the claim that magical pink unicorns exist. It is not person B's responsibility to prove Unicorns don't exist. (If it was his responsibility, then we would see the mention of Magical Pink Unicorns in our science text books.) Person A must first present evidence to suggest that unicorns exist. If he cannot, then there is reason to believe that magical pink unicorns don't exist. This doesn't mean they don't exist in reality, unicorns could very well exist. But they don't exist to humans until reliable evidence is presented. The lack of evidence is not necessarily evidence for the reverse of the claim, the lack of evidence is simply evidence against the claim's legitimacy.

There is no such thing as 100% fact. Everything we believe is based on probability. Gravity is not 100% fact. It's probably more like 98% fact. However, we believe it because there is substantial evidence to suggest it exists. In fact, to believe the theory of gravity is false is illogical.

Similar concept applied to the concept of god. There is NO reliable evidence to suggest that god exists. None, Zip, Nada. Therefore, it is illogical to believe god exists, as it is illogical to believe he does not exist. The only logical position is agnosticism, which is in reality light atheism. True agnosticism does not exist thanks to "The Law Of the Secluded Middle."

[Obscurum14]

Asking: Does god exist? is like asking: When a tree falls in a forest but no-one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

It could quite possibly be true, but there is no real way to prove it. That doesn't mean that it is false though and so a clear answer can't really be obtained, which is where the logic that most people use while trying to answer the question of the existence of a god falls over.

[Maggotsfriend]

So answering their question with the same question is denial of there truth that you wasted your life.

[freetibet]

Let's create an example:
Person A: "Magic Pink Unicorns exist."

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "Prove that it doesn't exist."

Person B: "I can't."

Person A: "Then the magical pink unicorn exists!"

It would be more like this if we're talking about god:

Person A: "I'm in love!"

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "wtf I don't need to prove i'm in love I just feel it"

Person B: "ha so you admit there is no proof you are in love, that means you aren't in love"

Person A: "you're weird"

Person B "the burden of proof falls on the person making a positive statment. kinda like saying unicorns exist..."

Person A: "stfu dumbass"

[DoG MikkyW]

I'm not saying that a god doesn't exist. I'm not out to prove that one doesn't. I'm not saying that if no non-religion based proof can be provided, that a god doesn't exist. I merely want proof. Pure proof. And don't post some stupid youtube video about how a banana fits good in my hand, so god exists. I want you to construct a nice essay, with nicely thought out ideas, that doesn't sound biased too much. And most importantly, tries to think of what the nay-sayers would say. If someone does that, I'll shut up. Depending on the quality of the paper, I might start believing in that god. Now, I will tell you, I know, for a fact, that evolution does happen, you can't disprove it, nor, quite frankly, does it interfere with the christian religion. I'm just saying, anyone who writes an essay, if there is any part which tries to disprove evolution, I will stop reading. You are wrong. DNA and chromosomes don't match up with useless bones and useful bones, and lost tendons and extra mussels and certain scientific mussels, just because god created us that way. I believe firmly that it is a viable argument to say god created the first cells and protists, and that from there, when he told the story to Moses (or whatever prophet he spoke to,) he simplified it so the prophet would have some idea what god was talking about. Now, this seems like a much more reasonable and non-sacrilegious way to go about this. Much more intelligent of a thought than evolution doesn't exist. Anyways, sorry for the long rant, but that always pisses me off.

[ramalamafafafa]

It would be more like this if we're talking about god:

Person A: "I'm in love!"

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "wtf I don't need to prove i'm in love I just feel it"

Person B: "ha so you admit there is no proof you are in love, that means you aren't in love"

Person A: "you're weird"

Person B "the burden of proof falls on the person making a positive statment. kinda like saying unicorns exist..."

Person A: "stfu dumbass"

That's retarded.

I could walk into a court and say "FREETIBET KILLED 88 BABIES!!!!", it would be my responsibility to provide proof of my wild claim, not your responsibility to disprove it.

[freetibet]

I believe firmly that it is a viable argument to say god created the first cells and protists, and that from there, when he told the story to Moses (or whatever prophet he spoke to,) he simplified it so the prophet would have some idea what god was talking about. Now, this seems like a much more reasonable and non-sacrilegious way to go about this. Much more intelligent of a thought than evolution doesn't exist.

I think that God created life, and that everything was in harmony till humans evolved and gained the ability to realize good and evil. So the story of Adam was more about mankind giving up its blissful ignorance and unity with the other creatures of the earth than a literal story of a historic event.

Kinda like how Jesus would use parables to help people understand him. Debating whether or not creation actually happened would be like debating if there was actually a historic good samaritan that helped someone. You may or may not be able to prove your point, but either way it doesn't matter. Because the historical accuracy of the story has nothing to do with the message of it.

That's retarded.

I could walk into a court and say "FREETIBET KILLED 88 BABIES!!!!", it would be my responsibility to provide proof of my wild claim, not your responsibility to disprove it.

You totally missed the point of what I just said...

God isn't something that can be grouped into the same category as killing babies, unicorns, or santa claus.

The spiritual is more closely related to emotions than physical things. And you can't prove that someone is feeling a certain emotion.

Though really explaining the spiritual to an atheist is like explaining music to a deaf person. I can compare it to similar things you understand, but in the end you have to hear the music I can't explain it away to you.

[ramalamafafafa]

I think that God created life, and that everything was in harmony till humans evolved and gained the ability to realize good and evil. So the story of Adam was more about mankind giving up its blissful ignorance and unity with the other creatures of the earth than a literal story of a historic event.

Kinda like how Jesus would use parables to help people understand him. Debating whether or not creation actually happened would be like debating if there was actually a historic good samaritan that helped someone. You may or may not be able to prove your point, but either way it doesn't matter. Because the historical accuracy of the story has nothing to do with the message of it.



You totally missed the point of what I just said...

God isn't something that can be grouped into the same category as killing babies, unicorns, or santa claus.

The spiritual is more closely related to emotions than physical things. And you can't prove that someone is feeling a certain emotion.

Though really explaining the spiritual to an atheist is like explaining music to a deaf person. I can compare it to similar things you understand, but in the end you have to hear the music I can't explain it away to you.

So, if it's just something you feel in your head, why does the church hold so much influence?

[bcguardian0]

Sorry for involving religion. I did not intend any offense. Alright then, I refuse to be logical. :) We could argue back and forth forever on this, so I'm done. I can't prove it, you can't disprove it. We all go home grumbling about the other. *shrug*

[ramalamafafafa]

Sorry for involving religion. I did not intend any offense. Alright then, I refuse to be logical. :) We could argue back and forth forever on this, so I'm done. I can't prove it, you can't disprove it. We all go home grumbling about the other. *shrug*

We can disprove it! The absence of proof disproves!

[bcguardian0]

Yes, well, even with proof, there are still people who think the world is flat and that the earth is the center of the solar system.

[katt]

Really??? Where are these poor, misinformed people?

[bcguardian0]

The Flat Earth Society, if I remember the name correctly. The president, last I knew lived in Arizona, in view of the factory where they made rocket boosters for NASA.

[katt]

Are you sure it wasn't a joke?

[bcguardian0]

Could be, I heard it from my uncle who has been known to spin a few yarns, I'll check, give me just a minute.

[Zamato Elite]

The spiritual is more closely related to emotions than physical things. And you can't prove that someone is feeling a certain emotion.

Though really explaining the spiritual to an atheist is like explaining music to a deaf person. I can compare it to similar things you understand, but in the end you have to hear the music I can't explain it away to you.

Actually, Nero-science has already explained the feelings in your head while you pray and feel "spiritual." Essentially it's a self delusion by the releasing of Dopamine compounds in the brain. This is the "feel good" chemical in the brain. This chemical can be found in almost every drug and is also released when we find a sexual partner.

Science has discovered the activity of the brain during prayer and meditation. Sorry to break it to you, there is nothing "magical" or "supernatural" going on. It's all placebo.

[bcguardian0]

Actually, Nero-science has already explained the feelings in your head while you pray and feel "spiritual." Essentially it's a self delusion by the releasing of Dopamine compounds in the brain. This is the "feel good" chemical in the brain. This chemical can be found in almost every drug and is also released when we find a sexual partner.

Science has discovered the activity of the brain during prayer and meditation. Sorry to break it to you, there is nothing "magical" or "supernatural" going on. It's all placebo.

Okay, so it's a placebo. I'd much rather have feel good chemicals coming through a placebo than a drug, so I think I'll stick to praying and off the Rx.

[bcguardian0]

Okay, not the guy from arizona that I heard about, but ta da. Even with staggering evidence opposing them, they still believe in a flat earth, not really sure which side of the argument this helps, but hey, just goes to show that having proof isn't everything. Ah, screw it, just punch in Flat Earth Society at google and you'll see what I mean.

[katt]

The link isn't working, and, what about the people who believe that the sun rotates around the Earth?

[ramalamafafafa]

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/flathome.htm Okay, not the guy from arizona that I heard about, but ta da. Even with staggering evidence opposing them, they still believe in a flat earth, not really sure which side of the argument this helps, but hey, just goes to show that having proof isn't everything.

No, that proves that blind acceptance in the face of overwhelming evidence is just dumb.

And that these people, like the religious, are idiots.

[ramalamafafafa]

The link isn't working, and, what about the people who believe that the sun rotates around the Earth?

We can't prove that it doesn't.....



Oh, wait, we can..

[katt]

Is the it in that sentence referring to the sun or the link?

[ramalamafafafa]

The sun.

Rushed posts blow.

[bcguardian0]

No, that proves that blind acceptance in the face of overwhelming evidence is just dumb.

And that these people, like the religious, are idiots.

Now, now. It's not nice to call someone an idiot. :D The point I was trying to make was this. If I were to knock on your door one day and introduce you to God, who was, for some odd reason, willing to go with the idea. This is how it could go,
Me: Hey, Ramalamafafafa. (can I just call you Rama for this?) This is God. God this is Rama.
God: It's good to see you again.
You: Who the f*** did you get to wear a sheet and a funny wig? F*** OFF! *Door slams*
You see? Even if if God showed himself to you as proof, you may still not believe it.

[bcguardian0]

Meh, I'm not very good with computers, I do better working with my hands.

[Zamato Elite]

Meh, I'm not very good with computers, I do better working with my hands.

Very well. Just remember your religion is a lie and god doesn't exist.

[bcguardian0]

That's like remembering that your head isn't up your ass.

[bcguardian0]

That's like remembering that your head isn't up your ass.

Sorry Zamato Elite. I shouldn't have said that. That was rude.

[Ghostfacekiller]

We can disprove it! The absence of proof disproves!

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


As little as our monkey brains know do you think we can really say there isnt a god. The whole pink unicorn argument is basicly fail. How many people report seeig a pink unicorn verse seeing a god in any form? we can serch the forest for a unicorn. we can serch the forest for signs of a unicorn(corpse, bones, there magical shit) But where do you serch for god? You dont even understand how stupid we really are. we are not even a class 1 civilization yet.

[superflysuperwhite]

Asking: Does god exist? is like asking: When a tree falls in a forest but no-one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

It could quite possibly be true, but there is no real way to prove it. That doesn't mean that it is false though and so a clear answer can't really be obtained, which is where the logic that most people use while trying to answer the question of the existence of a god falls over.

when a tree falls it creates vibrations, in the air ground, and anything else it comes into contact with.... NOISE.

[a2thae]

Asking: Does god exist? is like asking: When a tree falls in a forest but no-one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?

It could quite possibly be true, but there is no real way to prove it. That doesn't mean that it is false though and so a clear answer can't really be obtained, which is where the logic that most people use while trying to answer the question of the existence of a god falls over.

when a tree falls it creates vibrations, in the air ground, and anything else it comes into contact with.... NOISE.

It depends on how you define noise. If you define noise as the frequency something emits, then yes it does make a noise, however if you choose to define noise as something that has to be heard, then we move on to define heard.

To be heard, does it have register in a sentient being? Or does frequency being absorbed into an object count as hearing? If a sentient being has to register the frequency for you to qualify it as noise, then it doesn't make noise in that regard, but if define it as a frequency, then yes it does make noise.

[superflysuperwhite]

actually the true saying is does it make a sound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
and sound is not what we actually hear.. that's science for you.
this question is like asking if elephants really transmit low frequencey sound waves tro other elephants.
just because humans can't hear it doesnt make it not a sound... but w/e this has nothing to do really with the oringinal thing

But i think the fact rama is calling people who believe in religion "idiots" because they wont except "fact" when he has his stone clod beliefe that communisim is the only form of gov't that will ever work.



why do i believ in "god" Because i dissproved it's existance to myself countless times. I know logically it makes absolutly no real sense. BUT i cannot stop believeing for some reason. It is like a six sense or something, like you know how you get a feeling sometimes something bad is about to happen and it does? that is the feeling i get. also there are the thjings i've talked about befor.

[GaMeRbOt]

Going back to the subject this thread was created for, some of you guys and girls can probably agree with me that "God" is simply defined as the existence of existence. This of course is the basis of all religions that have a single "God", just that every culture has taken that simple definition and twisted it into ""God" is a being that created everything and he is everywhere are once watching everything you do", as to instate fear in those who break rules written by human beings. But of course, "God" wrote those rules right? Back in 54 AD when Moses wrote the Ten Commandments and The Book Of Genesis, going forward a few hundred years the earth was KNOWN to be flat, and the Earth was KNOWN to be the center of the universe. Science of course disproving all that bullshit later in time. Going back to Moses and the plagues, ever seen the documentary on the History Channel that dates a volcanic eruption to the exact time of the plagues? Y'all should watch it some time, its pretty interesting, it will make your stubborn fucktarded selves snap into reality of things and realize, "Hey, science is right", may not be accurate in a few instances, but it has a fuckload more physical evidence and science fact than all religions put together.

why do i believ in "god" Because i dissproved it's existance to myself countless times. I know logically it makes absolutly no real sense. BUT i cannot stop believeing for some reason. It is like a six sense or something, like you know how you get a feeling sometimes something bad is about to happen and it does? that is the feeling i get. also there are the thjings i've talked about befor.

Coincidence meets with what you were raised to believe, thus creating thoughts siding with that in which you believe. Think of it this way, if you were the first person on earth to think on the question of "Where do we come from?", I'm positive you will come up with something along the lines of creationism. Now, if you compare eastern culture with western culture back before the "New World", you can see that there is a HUGE gap between religious beliefs, take the Native Americans for instance, they believed we came from corn, BELIEVED!!! Because that is what they were raised to believe, now if you look at Eastern culture, more specifically Athens, they believed that there were many different Gods, one for every different aspect of life. I'm sure if you grew up in either of these cultures during those times, you would "believe" as you say, in what was "known". Now a days, its pretty much the same principles, you believe what you are learned to believe, though there are those that have common sense enough to say "Wait a minute, why is my religion the right way when other cultures KNOW that their religion is the right way?" IF you havn't asked yourself that question, I think its about damn time.

[DoG MikkyW]

I think that God created life, and that everything was in harmony till humans evolved and gained the ability to realize good and evil. So the story of Adam was more about mankind giving up its blissful ignorance and unity with the other creatures of the earth than a literal story of a historic event.

Kinda like how Jesus would use parables to help people understand him. Debating whether or not creation actually happened would be like debating if there was actually a historic good samaritan that helped someone. You may or may not be able to prove your point, but either way it doesn't matter. Because the historical accuracy of the story has nothing to do with the message of it.


This seems like a completely viable point. Thanks for not coming off ignorant. I leave this topic alone for a while. This is also how I believe the bible should be interpreted. Thanks tibet!

[freetibet]

Actually, Nero-science has already explained the feelings in your head while you pray and feel "spiritual." Essentially it's a self delusion by the releasing of Dopamine compounds in the brain. This is the "feel good" chemical in the brain. This chemical can be found in almost every drug and is also released when we find a sexual partner.

Science has discovered the activity of the brain during prayer and meditation. Sorry to break it to you, there is nothing "magical" or "supernatural" going on. It's all placebo.

Well I think God works in natural ways so it would make sense that dopamine is released when you pray and such.

If the feeling of being close to god is as strong as finding a sexual partner its got to be more than placebo effect.

[GaMeRbOt]

In faith, "God" is existant, only in reality is "God" but an element in human imagination and social interaction.GB.IV_XX.

[freetibet]

its really hard to take you seriously when i know you dress up in home made star wars costumes...

lol just thought i'd point that out

[GaMeRbOt]

HAHAHAHAHA, made by Marc Echo bitch, also I'd like to point out that you are a self indulging ignoramuses. So shut your trap and leave me the fuck alone, you don't know me.

1488

[freetibet]

hmmm seems you changed your avatar

mission accomplished

[itismesaj]

Disclaimer: This is not my belief. It is simply Devil's Advocate.

ramalamafafafa, do you pay attention to history books? Do you believe what they say? If no, then I would say that you were an idiot for turning your back on history. But, if yes, then what would you call the Bible? It is, afterall, the first compilation of human history. The Bible tells of a great flood that lasted for fourty days (which isn't that long for a flood) that devastated Mesopotamia. How is that any different than a history book telling you about a battle in World War I?

[ramalamafafafa]

Disclaimer: This is not my belief. It is simply Devil's Advocate.

ramalamafafafa, do you pay attention to history books? Do you believe what they say? If no, then I would say that you were an idiot for turning your back on history. But, if yes, then what would you call the Bible? It is, afterall, the first compilation of human history. The Bible tells of a great flood that lasted for fourty days (which isn't that long for a flood) that devastated Mesopotamia. How is that any different than a history book telling you about a battle in World War I?

History texts are statements of facts, not unproven lies.

[itismesaj]

Do your parents let you get away with being a hypocrite? Because I won't.

Calling the Bible a book of lies is an unproven lie in itself. It'd be like calling your World History book a book of lies. The Bible has recorded events of history, same as your World History book.

Stop being a hater. Learn to accept. But, most of all, don't be a hypocrite.

ramalamafafafa, you have been, once again, out-debated. Learn this, like mass, Cuddles, and lnt have learned before you: I will win every debate I get myself into.

[ramalamafafafa]

Do your parents let you get away with being a hypocrite? Because I won't.

Calling the Bible a book of lies is an unproven lie in itself. It'd be like calling your World History book a book of lies. The Bible has recorded events of history, same as your World History book.

Stop being a hater. Learn to accept. But, most of all, don't be a hypocrite.

ramalamafafafa, you have been, once again, out-debated. Learn this, like mass, Cuddles, and lnt have learned before you: I will win every debate I get myself into.

The Bible is based upon the idea of a god. No god exists. Innocent untill proven guilty. Non-existant untill existance is proven

Debate over. I win.

[gentle pastor]

Debate over. I win.
No and No.

By your logic I could say something along the lines of "I don't understand quantam physics, No one has definitavely proven any of those theories therefore it does not exist"
I'm not exactly the most spiritual person and I don't worship a higher power, this does not mean that one does not exist, we'll never find out until we die and then we won't exactly be able to come back and tell the others.

[ramalamafafafa]

No and No.

By your logic I could say something along the lines of "I don't understand quantam physics, No one has definitavely proven any of those theories therefore it does not exist"
I'm not exactly the most spiritual person and I don't worship a higher power, this does not mean that one does not exist, we'll never find out until we die and then we won't exactly be able to come back and tell the others.

So what, i can make any wild, unprovable claim i want, and it can't be callled a lie because it can't be disproved?

Fuck yeah!

[gentle pastor]

That's what you do anyway.

[ramalamafafafa]

Well there's a living, 800 foot high monkey with fluro pink feet, flaming hands and lazer eyes in existance, on Earth. I said it's so, so it's true. You can't disprove it, so it is 100% fact.

[gentle pastor]

I never said that at all.
I said just because us mere humans can't prove it one way or the other doesn't mean it definitely goes one way or the other. We are so far short of beginning to understand the origin of our existence it's not even funny. We can't begin to fully comprehend the forces at play in the universe, it's just so far beyond us

[ramalamafafafa]

I never said that at all.


Same logic the idea of a supreme being is reliant on....

[freetibet]

Ramal is impossible to reason with... He gets an idea in his head and then no amount of evidence will make him change his mind

One of these days he's going to decide something really stupid/dangerous is true...

ramal: I'm going to jump off this cliff and then bounce to the moon! There is no way you can prove I can't, that means I can.

ACB community: no ramal you'll die!

ramal: muahaha you are all slaves to capitalism and religion!

*jumps off cliff and dies*

ACB community: oh well... at least now the anti-establishment rants will stop

[ramalamafafafa]

Ramal is impossible to reason with... He gets an idea in his head and then no amount of evidence will make him change his mind

One of these days he's going to decide something really stupid/dangerous is true...

ramal: I'm going to jump off this cliff and then bounce to the moon! There is no way you can prove I can't, that means I can.

ACB community: no ramal you'll die!

ramal: muahaha you are all slaves to capitalism and religion!

*jumps off cliff and dies*

ACB community: oh well... at least now the anti-establishment rants will stop

You're a right moron.

The "you can't disprove it" point was an example of the logic on which belief in god is based. I was helping the point i made that absence of proof is proof of absence.

[superflysuperwhite]

do you believe in aliens ram?

there's no definative proof that there actually are any.. but a hell of alot of people believe in them, many in the science feilds do too.

but since there's no actual eveidence that means that there is no way in hell they exist, right?

[GaMeRbOt]

Tibet's logic reminds me of the "proof" that was presented in Salem to "prove" the existance of witches. Baseless bullshit.

[GaMeRbOt]

do you believe in aliens ram?

there's no definative proof that there actually are any.. but a hell of alot of people believe in them, many in the science feilds do too.

but since there's no actual eveidence that means that there is no way in hell they exist, right?

ever heard of Starchild?

[Cake]

You want proof of god?!!? i'll give ya proof...

BEHOLD!! THE ATHEIST NIGHTMARE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A

Lol hes playing with a banana.....i have no sound...so idk what hes saying.....heres what i think he said though....

"This is what i did you my Bf last night........then i squuezed this...." lol

[freetibet]

Tibet's logic reminds me of the "proof" that was presented in Salem to "prove" the existance of witches. Baseless bullshit.

So you're the jumping off cliffs type too?

I bet you'd jump even after you saw ramal fall to his death :p

Or are you just disagreeing with me because I made fun of your star wars costume?

[GaMeRbOt]

Disprove the point I made in that post you last quoted please. Stop beating around the bush with your sophomoric insults.

[freetibet]

ok... the logic behind the salem witch trials was that we think these people are witches, so we should kill them.

My logic is that just because there isn't concrete evidence of the spiritual, doesn't mean its impossible. You don't have to accept it, and it isn't proven, but its not totally illogical to believe in it either.

In fact I"d say its more logical because if you have personal evidence of the spiritual, then it is essentially proven. Even if it is only proven to you.

and did you seriously just call me 'sophomoric' when your the one who dresses up like a storm trooper? I'd much rather be a little immature than a bigot...

edit*
Lol hes playing with a banana.....i have no sound...so idk what hes saying.....heres what i think he said though....

"This is what i did you my Bf last night........then i squuezed this...." lol

hahahaha

that would be kinda funny without the sound

[deathlord888]

you could say the fact that there are obvious bounderies and laws. I mean there's no walking through wall or w/e. and yes that is physics or you know "god's writen law" the real "laws of god" not the ten comandment bullshit. I mean a bird doesnt grow into a tree and we can't shoot lasers out of our eyes.



lol we can walk through walls, just statistically it isnt going to happen

[freetibet]

lol we can walk through walls, just statistically it isnt going to happen

We can walk through walls?

[GaMeRbOt]

ok... the logic behind the salem witch trials was that we think these people are witches, so we should kill them.

My logic is that just because there isn't concrete evidence of the spiritual, doesn't mean its impossible. You don't have to accept it, and it isn't proven, but its not totally illogical to believe in it either.

In fact I"d say its more logical because if you have personal evidence of the spiritual, then it is essentially proven. Even if it is only proven to you.

You make a good point about faith, but you might want to read up on the Salem Witch trials, there was much more behind it than people calling each other witches. I'm sure you don't even know what Tituba is without googling it.

[itismesaj]

The Bible is based upon the idea of a god. No god exists. Innocent untill proven guilty. Non-existant untill existance is proven

Debate over. I win.
Congratulations. You have just missed the point. And you are still making unproven assumptions. Stop. Being. A. Hypocrite.

The Bible is not "based" on anything. It is historians writing down events. That is exactly what history books are.

This is why I refuse to argue, normally. Because there is no end. I like convincing a Judge instead of trying to convince a naive, sheltered, twelve-year-old who hasn't lived a day of life.

[ramalamafafafa]

Congratulations. You have just missed the point. And you are still making unproven assumptions. Stop. Being. A. Hypocrite.

The Bible is not "based" on anything. It is historians writing down events. That is exactly what history books are.

This is why I refuse to argue, normally. Because there is no end. I like convincing a Judge instead of trying to convince a naive, sheltered, twelve-year-old who hasn't lived a day of life.

Historians writing down events?

Right, like the son of god getting nailed to a cross, then getting resurrected?

Yeah, plausible. Still requires proof of god.

[itismesaj]

It IS. It is just as factual as the motherfucking text book in your history class. Why? Because nobody else from that time period contradicted it. It is historians writing down events. Nobody contradicted it until ~AD 700, when Islam was founded. If someone contradicted your text book, then people would scour other sources of history from the time period. But if no other source other than the one listed exists, then we must view the things described as fact.

[ramalamafafafa]

It IS. It is just as factual as the motherfucking text book in your history class. Why? Because nobody else from that time period contradicted it. It is historians writing down events. Nobody contradicted it until ~AD 700, when Islam was founded. If someone contradicted your text book, then people would scour other sources of history from the time period. But if no other source other than the one listed exists, then we must view the things described as fact.

All of the events described in the bible are (one way or another) based around the idea of a divine being. And this divine being supposedly exists today. So, fucking prove it!

Untill then, one can assume that all of the bible is false or falsified.

[freetibet]

You make a good point about faith, but you might want to read up on the Salem Witch trials, there was much more behind it than people calling each other witches. I'm sure you don't even know what Tituba is without googling it.

and why would I want to know about that? So I can go around saying I know more about it than other people? Well I bet I know more about certain other parts of history than you do, that doesn't mean I'm smart though.

Untill then, one can assume that all of the bible is false or falsified.

you can assume it is false, but you can't know for sure. You can also assume its right. It works both ways

[GaMeRbOt]

and why would I want to know about that? So I can go around saying I know more about it than other people? Well I bet I know more about certain other parts of history than you do, that doesn't mean I'm smart though.



you can assume it is false, but you can't know for sure. You can also assume its right. It works both ways

Read some books such as the kuran or BIBLE. The probability of the existance of a "God" is paralelled by the non existance of a "God". Thus branching off into creationism, evolutionism, and science.

[superflysuperwhite]

You make a good point about faith, but you might want to read up on the Salem Witch trials, there was much more behind it than people calling each other witches. I'm sure you don't even know what Tituba is without googling it.

WHO tituba is.

and no i didnt google it =P

[Dracus124]

Man.......

Just smoke some fucking pot.

We're not meant to know if they're is a god or not.

We're not meant to know how we were created.

We're not meant to know what for sure lies in the after life.

Thats just the way it is.

[methtownblue]

Read some books such as the kuran or BIBLE. The probability of the existance of a "God" is paralelled by the non existance of a "God". Thus branching off into creationism, evolutionism, and science.

I think you should replace "science" with "intelligent design", which is a hybrid between creationism and evolutionism. Also science pretty much includes evolution in one of its many branches anyway.

[GaMeRbOt]

I think you should replace "science" with "intelligent design", which is a hybrid between creationism and evolutionism. Also science pretty much includes evolution in one of its many branches anyway.

Science Fact*

Sorry for the confusion. "Intelligent Design" is it's own category, things such as extraterrestrials seeding the earth as well as an ultimate being creating the universe are a sub category called "Creationism". Merely science fiction, faith is always a factor. I'm sure if the Vatican publicly released ALL of the documents they have in their vaults, I'm pretty damn sure religion would be stomped the fuck out, specifically Christianity and Judaism.

[cstrikehero]

We can walk through walls?

ya.. u just gotta run real fast. only works with brick concrete and metal though...

and all the rest of you:

some of you have some good points.. but most of this is BS and assumed theories...

u a know what assuming does right

it makes an ass out of u and me

except im not an ass..

some believes something completly and obviously false.. just let him.. hes not open to the truth so just forget it...

he has been presented with fact after fact after proof after proof.. and he has not once consideres it..

i think when hes at home jacking off.. he gets bored thinking about men and starts a religious thread just to mess with people.. so just dont talk to him and he'll shut up

honestly.. its stupid and a waste of time.. you could be doing something alot better with it..

[ramalamafafafa]

ya.. u just gotta run real fast. only works with brick concrete and metal though...

and all the rest of you:

some of you have some good points.. but most of this is BS and assumed theories...

u a know what assuming does right

it makes an ass out of u and me

except im not an ass..

some believes something completly and obviously false.. just let him.. hes not open to the truth so just forget it...

he has been presented with fact after fact after proof after proof.. and he has not once consideres it..

i think when hes at home jacking off.. he gets bored thinking about men and starts a religious thread just to mess with people.. so just dont talk to him and he'll shut up

honestly.. its stupid and a waste of time.. you could be doing something alot better with it..

You've shown me no evidence, therefore, no truth.

Absence of proof is proof of absence.

[ramalamafafafa]

Still waiting.........

[itismesaj]

I, uh, I kinda had a philosophical breakthrough tonight. I will share it with you when I have the book completed.

[freetibet]

I'm sure if the Vatican publicly released ALL of the documents they have in their vaults, I'm pretty damn sure religion would be stomped the fuck out, specifically Christianity and Judaism.

WTF does the Vatican have to do with Christianity and Judaism as a whole?

You are sooooo confused... luckily your kind are few and far between or the world would go to shit.

Absence of proof is proof of absence.

omg no it isn't... You have no proof I exist, but I sure as hell do. Evolution wasn't proven for a very long time, does that mean it didn't exist before it was proven?

How many times do I have to say this?

[TotalAnarchyUK]

You have no proof I exist, but I sure as hell do.

Your post could be proof of your existance.

It is highly improbable that there is a god.

Where is gods post?

[Chiri]

Your post could be proof of your existance.

It is highly improbable that there is a god.

Where is gods post?

His post wouldn't be proof of existence to people like yourselves, who deny any little spark of hope that other's try to scrape together. If "God" posted here, what would you think? Your mindset would immediately leave you with the impression of a prankster or crazed religious fan who wants to change your opinion.

What about someone on the other side of the world? Has there really been any proof that Sadam Hussein existed? Are we sure it wasn't all a staged conspiracy for the US to invade Iraq, to depose a man that was just an actor furthering the agenda of a greedy country? How do I know your mom exists unless I've met and banged her? ...Do you want me to go prove to myself that your mom exists TotalAnarchy?

After all this, does it really matter? Perhaps it hasn't hit you guys yet that "faith" is a major part of religion. There isn't proof of god, and never will be for as long as you're alive to look for it. Religious groups acknowledge and accept that they must take the existence of God on faith, and that they aren't going to get instant results and a perfect, gravy train life.

Some people are just too materialistic to comprehend this. Regardless of whether or not God does exist, people believe he does, and that gives them spiritual resilience beyond anything you can ever work up. This can drive people to unhuman extremes in a positive way because they know that God is there with them.

For my cause, I can work, suffer, and succeed. For your cause, you can whine and post bitchy threads attacking other people's belief systems.

We all know you don't hope to gain anything from this thread. Why'd you make it in the first place?

[JohnLennonII]

I would like to be able to say for everyone that "attacking belief systems" isn't a vendetta thing, but unfortunately it is.
Chiri, as someone who does not believe that the nature of God is knowable, I have plenty to strive and live for.
Just because I don't have a God or Gods to fight for doesn't mean that I have nothing to fight for.
freetibet, your comments make me smile here.
You hit the nail on the head.
If you don't have proof for something, you simply don't have proof.
It doesn't prove that that something is absent.
And finally, Chiri, while faith is important in religion, some people need more proof to be able to lend more faith.
Personally, I view it as an elevator.
I don't know how it works exactly, but I get the general idea.
I've been on many elevators before, and I have faith that the next one I step on will hold me and take me where I need to be eventually.
I don't have complete faith, because I know sometimes they stall or are really slow.
However, I do have faith in most elevators.
Faith in religion, for me, is like asking me to get into something I have no clue about.
I need to know enough to be comfortable with the fact that I don't know everything in order to have faith.
Christianity, and the existence of a Judeo-Christian God, or most God(s) for that matter, will never be able to tell me enough about them to make me feel comfortable about not knowing the rest.

[Chiri]

Yes, you have something to fight for other than a God, but what about people who don't? Some people need that bit of hope to add some zeal to their lives, and give them a community of likeminded people to be with. Even if you do know what you're living for, why not add a little more faith, and therefore more reason to live?

When you've dealt with death a few times, (not saying you haven't, some of you might have lived through extraordinary circumstances or seen a lot of people close to you die for some reason or another.) you come to appreciate that a closeknit community of people centered around a faith are there to help you when you need it. This is especially true for the people who aren't all tough, uber, and internet rambos like Ramalamafafafa, such as elderly people or widows. Belief in a higher power can have similar results, because nobody wants to be alone. The community effect that brings people together around a religion is the more important part, however.

The last part of your rebuttal is exactly why I don't affiliate myself with a particular religion. Despite everything I've just said, I believe God should be interpretable to all, not handed down by a specific clergy class that interprets it for us. This just creates a balance of power in the favour of that class, which is how the crusades got started. This way I don't need to be told anything about my religion. I can learn and experience it myself, using my own fundamental beliefs as a guidance system. In a way, yes, it nulls the important of the guidance aspect of religion, but I don't feel that is necessary in a modern world.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

How do I know your mom exists unless I've met and banged her? ...Do you want me to go prove to myself that your mom exists TotalAnarchy?

Grow a dick, and pair of balls before you resort to childlike taunting.

Religious groups acknowledge and accept that they must take the existence of God on faith, and that they aren't going to get instant results and a perfect, gravy train life.

About the biggest lie I ever heard.

This can drive people to unhuman extremes in a positive way because they know that God is there with them.

True, I understand what wonderful things religion and faith in god can create. But this also works in the other way, the bad that has come from organized religion founded because of a "god" far outwieghs the good.

[gentle pastor]

here is a good reason as to why god MAY exist, this is not a complete proof by any shot.
Laws of physics tell us that you cannot create something from nothing and something cannot have always existed. that means existence itself breaks the laws of existence which suggests something else could be at play.

[Chiri]

Grow a dick, and pair of balls before you resort to childlike taunting.



About the biggest lie I ever heard.



True, I understand what wonderful things religion and faith in god can create. But this also works in the other way, the bad that has come from organized religion founded because of a "god" far outwieghs the good.

Hey, I see where this is going. Don't get on my case and then start asking for proof of me having a dick and balls in the form of a picture. F*ckin weirdo.

Biggest lie you've ever heard? Have you ever actually been TOLD to believe in God by a religious organization because you have to? I haven't been encouraged by a priest to follow a religion blindly. In fact, most encouraged me to think and find answers for myself to find out if their particular branch of the faith was right for me. Blind faith is so outdated.

I'd disagree. Doesn't the good outweigh the bad? Every year religious afiliated charities help thousands of people live better lives, donate millions of dollars and tonnes of food and supplies to causes that help starving children in third world countries, etc. As far as problems related to the existence of god, we've had what? There's a reason religions are naturally and aggressively pro-life and preach that God is inherently good. It's so people like you can't fuck this up and call them out on some kind of scandal responsible for the deaths of innocents. Somehow, you do anyway though.

[Ninja]

I'm not gonna go around looking for these quotes
"the religious experience is just the brain releasing dopamine, like in sex"
or that dopamine and changes in brainwaves are superficial signs of a person's closeness to God at that moment (or closeness so some deep part of the psyche which could be called the "holy spirit" or w/e within us)

"The Bible is not history, it is all made up"
actually, scientists, archeologists, historians, etc have been finding all sorts of proof. A volcano erupted around the same time as the plagues. There was a great flood (or several) around the time the bible records. Several roman histories and letters refer to Jesus. So Jesus and most of the historical events in the Bible have been proven to have existed.

Probability and evolution, out of all the infinite possible options, created a world with sentience and a tendency toward good.

But in the end, you can discount all these as coincidence. Maybe an infinite number of other universes "exist", logically demanding that our universe exist.
The only correct answer to your demand for proof is that no proof is absolute. The logical belief is agnosticism (not Atheism).
From there you can either take a leap of faith and interpret everything as coincidence
Or as the work of God (or you could believe that God is the universe, as one book i have read suggested)
sorry that was so long

oh and btw, "tangible" means that something can be perceived by a sense, usually touch. Most people don't believe in an incarnate God (that is living today at least)

[JohnLennonII]

Chiri, you bring up a good point.
Not "Blind faith is so outdated." Becuase I have had plenty of people say, "well, sure, you should think and ask questions, but once you get to the real questions that can't be answered with rhetoric, you have to take that on faith."
Blind faith has only been pushed back to deeper questions.
Your good point was how religion can help and has helped thousands of people.
Let me give you an example from my life...

My mom recently had a cancer scare.
She had to have three surguries, one to fix a broken disk in her spine, one to do a biopsy on the tumor they found as a result of the broken disk, and another to remove the tumor.
It wasn't malignant, but since before Thanksgiving of last year she hasn't been able to walk on her own.
I credit her faith as to part of the reason she's made it.
However, throughout this whole thing she continues to shove it on me, rather than letting it speak for itself.
My father, who knows that I don't believe what he does but refuses to let me tell mom, also continues to shove Christianity down my throat.

So, my point is that while Christianity and Mormonism and many other religions have done much for the community, they oftentimes are counteractive to their cause by viciously attacking people who disagree with them, obnoxiously spreading their religions, and some even by lying, saying that life will be perfect with religion.
Again, I don't expect perfection, just improvement.
And improvement is something I have not seen in the vast majority of cases.

Gentle pastor, "Laws of physics tell us that you cannot create something from nothing and something cannot have always existed. " is not entirely true.
Stephen Hawking is of the mindset (as am I, but he's a hell of lot smarter than me) that the universe may have existed forever.
The laws of physics can only tell us what happened after the big bang, not before.
Remember, it's ok to say that science doesn't know right now.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

Hey, I see where this is going. Don't get on my case and then start asking for proof of me having a dick and balls in the form of a picture. F*ckin weirdo.

Erm, when you do manage to find your crown jewels please resist the urge to jump up and down screaming " I found them! I found them! " and instead use that time to find your camera, zoom it in all the way, make an estimate to where you maggots eyelash was hiding all these years and take that picture! Iam sure Animal Planet are allways looking for pictures of a undiscovered catapillar, and iam sure you got the tiniest one hiding away under your boxers.

Biggest lie you've ever heard? Have you ever actually been TOLD to believe in God by a religious organization because you have to? I haven't been encouraged by a priest to follow a religion blindly. In fact, most encouraged me to think and find answers for myself to find out if their particular branch of the faith was right for me. Blind faith is so outdated.

Yes, have you not heard of street preachers? Westboro baptist church? Apparently if I dont belive what they belive Iam going to burn in the firey chasm of hell for all eternity.

I'd disagree. Doesn't the good outweigh the bad? Every year religious afiliated charities help thousands of people live better lives, donate millions of dollars and tonnes of food and supplies to causes that help starving children in third world countries, etc. As far as problems related to the existence of god, we've had what? There's a reason religions are naturally and aggressively pro-life and preach that God is inherently good. It's so people like you can't fuck this up and call them out on some kind of scandal responsible for the deaths of innocents. Somehow, you do anyway though.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong... wrong wrong wrong wrong! Millions and millions of people have been killed because of their religion or because somebody else killed in the name of theirs. Holocause strike a chord? Crusades maybe? Religiously affiliated groups? Hmmm heres a ton of food, now belive in our god. HA!

Your just a product of religious doctrine! Tool!

[Chiri]

JohnlennonII: Blind faith IS outdated, or should be. I'm pretty zealous about religion and I still encourage people to ask questions. What I don't encourage is people like this Ramalamafafafa, and TotalAnarchyUK here getting frustrated after expecting immediate results from some religious diety, then attacking it brutally because their needs and wants weren't immediately fulfilled.

You're right about religious groups being counterproductive to their cause. This thread is a prime example of the attitude they cause in people. Personally, I think a lot of the overly zealous religious preachers are that way because they don't accept and learn enough practicality and science to balance their religious beliefs and passion. People should have both, to some extent.

TotalAnarchyUK: Haha, that's pretty good. You made me laugh a bit out loud there. I'll give you that one.

Westboro baptist church is kind of a joke. Can you come up with a better example than that? Even most people in other similar religious communities think they're FUBAR in their belief system. It's not really acceptable in todays society to picket and protest at gay funerals, etc.

Religious groups are all vastly different on the outside; we can see that by looking around us, especially at world events. One thing, however, remains the same. True religions are always centered around the rule "treat your neighbour as you would like to be treated." Sound familiar? Should've heard it in grade school or something. This naturally inspires the need to help people that are in worse situations than their own.

Crusades? Yes, that's a blackmark on Christianity and they accept that now. This is exactly why I think God's will should be interpretable to the average person. This way, the Pope, Bishops, etc can't directly tell the believers what to believe and do to please God. No religious power pool=No crusades.

The Holocaust? That wasn't a religion killing somebody, that was a faschist government blaming all their pre WW II problems on a religious group, leading to a mass slaughter that I wouldn't really say was the Jewish religion's fault. Any group could be targetted. The Rwanda massacre targetted a vulnerable social class, then proceeded to slaughter this class with not equal, but DOUBLE the efficiency of the Holocaust. People will always fight others who are different. Sometimes it gets taken to extremes.

It's happened throughout history, it's happening in our countries, it's happening right now in this forum.

[JohnLennonII]

"I'm pretty zealous about religion and I still encourage people to ask questions. "
That's very commendable.
It's good to see there are some people who still have brains.
I also agree that oftentimes nonbelievers in <insert religion here> expect that if you say, "God strike me down!" and he/she/it doesn't, it's proof that there is no God.
Far from it.

As much as you wouldn't want to admit it, Chiri, not only the Crusades but also the Spanish Inquisition, Spanish colonization of North, Central, and South America, the slaughter of thousands of Native Americans, and the Witch Hunts were all done in the name of God.
And what about the entire civilizations in the Old Testament that were wiped out, men, women, and children, not just in the name of God, but by the command of God himself!
Point is, many times people can act in the name of God and go around killing people, or killing people's spirits so to speak, without having to have someone like the Pope or a King to tell them to.
A prime example is homosexuals.
Millions of gay people the world over have been persecuted for who they are by none other than Christians acting in the name of God.
What about all the pictures on the Internet saying that "God Hates Fags" and "Fags will burn in hell"?
Again, I don't expect perfection, just improvement.
If there isn't improvement, there is a strong case not to believe in the Christian God.

And unfortunately, yes, this forum has a tendency to lash out at those perceived as different.
It's just human nature.
That which we don't understand we fear the most.

[Chiri]

Those are all examples of people abusing the power that was pooled in their social class since only they could interpret religion. I already acknowledged this and said that people should be able to interpret God's will individually.

I have to see what you mean though now, about blind faith not being outdated yet. There are modern examples of blind followers in the examples that you gave, but I feel that this is less of an issue than it was say, 400 years ago. So this is seen. Regardless, however, these are all interpretations of a religious doctrine. If God does exist, he doesn't hate anybody.

[freetibet]

As much as you wouldn't want to admit it, Chiri, not only the Crusades but also the Spanish Inquisition, Spanish colonization of North, Central, and South America, the slaughter of thousands of Native Americans, and the Witch Hunts were all done in the name of God.

Well there has been plenty of slaughter in the name of science, logic, and the greater good. There has just been more examples of people doing it in the name of god, because there have been more religious people in earth's history than non-religious people.

Just because people have done bad things in god's name doesn't mean there is no higher power involved in the well being of mankind.

[Chiri]

After posting that even you have to accept, if religion is that widespread across the world, throughout Europe, the Middle East, North America, Africa, and other areas with indigenous people, does it not seem like religion is in the very nature of the human race?

Most cultures throughout the ancient world had some kind of diety they worshipped, or at least an affiliated religion. This shows that religion comes naturally to the human race, and is meant to be, in a way. When that many people believe in a form of higher power, where does the simultaneous mindset come from if these cultures hadn't received contamination from each other beforehand?

[Jsaskatchewan]

God is just another form of the egyptian god Horous, Bhuda, Ala and almost every other god there is know to man kind. Most of the gods were born of a virgin, died then was resercted a couple days later, had 12 deciples, was born on December 25th and they can all preform miricles. So "God" is just a knock off or replica of other make-belief heros that we worship to give us a reason how the earth and man was created.

[JohnLennonII]

"If God does exist, he doesn't hate anybody."
Where's the rational there?
If you're talking the Judeo-Christian God, then absolutely not.
Anyone who at the end of their life still does not believe, according to the Bible, will be sent to Hell where they are submitted to the wrath of God.
That's hate.
God hates sin.

You seem to think that because I mention all of these religion debacles I don't believe in God.
I see logic pointing to some sort of higher being, but I don't see the Christian God as that being.
Too many contradictions in nature, like being outside of time.
The simple point of being outside of time isn't the issue, the issue is that past, present, and future are the same to God, so how do you explain things like the Trinity and when Christ died on the cross?
Not only did Christ become seperated from the Trinity (changing its very nature) but he also became sin (changing his nature).
Supposedly God can't change.
I don't see that as a possibility here.

You still sidestepped the biblical examples I gave.
And while I agree that the examples don't disprove anything, I really don't want to believe in a religion that genocide has been performed in that God's name and by that God's command (Old Testament) or even in that God's name whether or not is was "commanded."

[freetibet]

God is just another form of the egyptian god Horous, Bhuda, Ala and almost every other god there is know to man kind. Most of the gods were born of a virgin, died then was resercted a couple days later, had 12 deciples, was born on December 25th and they can all preform miricles. So "God" is just a knock off or replica of other make-belief heros that we worship to give us a reason how the earth and man was created.

1st of all, learn to spell.

2nd, you have no idea what your talking about, so stfu.

3rd, jesus wasn't even born on December 25th, his birth is just celebrated then because Christians used to celebrate it the same time as pagans were celebrating to avoid persecution.

[Jsaskatchewan]

1st of all, learn to spell.

2nd, you have no idea what your talking about, so stfu.

3rd, jesus wasn't even born on December 25th, his birth is just celebrated then because Christians used to celebrate it the same time as pagans were celebrating to avoid persecution.

It does not matter if his birthday was on december 25th it is still celebrated on the 25th like almost all other gods. And if God does exist I would personally like him to show me some prof that he created a world by saying stupid lines like "Let there be light". There is scientific proof that the sun was not created by an almight god so why dont you stfu.

[superflysuperwhite]

God is just another form of the egyptian god Horous, Bhuda, Ala and almost every other god there is know to man kind. Most of the gods were born of a virgin, died then was resercted a couple days later, had 12 deciples, was born on December 25th and they can all preform miricles. So "God" is just a knock off or replica of other make-belief heros that we worship to give us a reason how the earth and man was created.

It does not matter if his birthday was on december 25th it is still celebrated on the 25th like almost all other gods. And if God does exist I would personally like him to show me some prof that he created a world by saying stupid lines like "Let there be light". There is scientific proof that the sun was not created by an almight god so why dont you stfu.


see... people like you are why movies like Zietgiest should not be made... because yes we all know that is where you got this from.

Heres the deal.. they werent talking about "God" you dolt the were talking about Jesus, my fuck atleast try and rember what you watched.

secondly, like the creatpors of Zietgiest you are an absolute moron who aparently belives that Christianity is the only religion people believe in... and for that matter the Christian "God" ois the only one people believe in.

MORON

anyone who trys to use examples from the bible to disprove "God" is more of an idiot then the person they are argueing about.

[Chiri]

My bad Johnlennon, I read over that one Old testament part. If God can personally command the slaughter of thousands of women and children, I believe that instantly proves the existence of God.

Since you're going to dispute that however, I'm going to tell you right now that God does NOT work in direct ways. He works through nature, through people that are following his call, and through the general good in the world. I don't know how many more times I can say a few select people were the channel that God "spoke" through for a very long time. These people and their greed or craze for power made all these slaughters possible, including your biblical examples.

You have to remember that the bible was written by people, not God. It wasn't directly handed down to us by the greater power himself. You can even take this a step further and say that this bible is taken to extremes by the people who read it and decide what it means to them. (Groups such as Westboro come to mind here.) God himself is the essence of perfection, love, and all the positive aspects of humanity.

"If God does exist, he doesn't hate anybody." First, God doesn't hate people. Ever. I wasn't lying about that. It's a major fundamental belief that God doesn't condemn a person as long as they repent. Worshipping and building a religion around a diety that thrives on hate and destruction is the worst idea I've ever heard of, so just take a step back and look at the big picture here. No matter how much a religious figure tells you that God hates a group, such as homosexuals, etc, you don't need to believe it. Everyone interprets God's will differently. I sure as hell won't stick with a God that discriminates against someone because they're female or because of their sexuality.

I think you're missing the point of my whole arguement Johnlennon. Worshipping God isn't about trying to figure out what pleases a higher power that you won't get solid and instantaneous feedback from. It's about fully and truly following YOUR own morals, about being the best person you can be. This is what God wants by my own interpretation, and the interpretation of any religious follower of any religion who truly understands.

As far as those who don't believe God exists go? God created us in his image. Think about this. Now, compare us to any animal in existence that we know of. Is there any other that can match our intelligence and sociality? No other animal has been able to create an electronic empire, a national government, a labour union, or tools this advanced.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

As far as those who don't believe God exists go? God created us in his image. Think about this. Now, compare us to any animal in existence that we know of. Is there any other that can match our intelligence and sociality? No other animal has been able to create an electronic empire, a national government, a labour union, or tools this advanced.

Who you trying to convince? If you think that a god created us, I mean physically created the first humans then you are deluded. Very, very deluded.

[Emily]

Proof of a God:
How was our universe originally created? Our universe is something, and something can't come from nothing. Some sort of supernatural being may have created it. I dunno.

[Chiri]

TotalAnarchyUK, I'm not a believer in creationism if that's what you are implying. Intelligent design perhaps? I was just quoting something you'd recognize from the bible.

Seriously. Just compare people to any other species on the planet. We have the capacity for way more than anything else, and we have a near impossible amount of sentient thought and intelligence. Look at how extensively we've evolved in the last 1000 years. Even shorten that to 100 years.

[ramalamafafafa]

You know what? This has nothing to do with the thread subject. Well, it does, i mean, i'm yet to see any tangible proof of a supreme being.

In other words, there is no god. There is no messiah. Move on, people.

[Chiri]

It's fostering valid and useful discussion and debate between us. Why do you care anyway? You haven't contributed to this thread in a while.

You aren't going to find solid proof of a higher power, we all know you didn't expect to and you're just trying to stir things up in the religious minority here. It's not really as clever as you thought it was when you made the thread.

Besides, you have to understand the mindset and the cultural views of the diety before you can decide whether it's real. That's what we (mostly me and JohnlennonII) are doing.

[ramalamafafafa]

It's fostering valid and useful discussion and debate between us. Why do you care anyway? You haven't contributed to this thread in a while.

You aren't going to find solid proof of a higher power, we all know you didn't expect to and you're just trying to stir things up in the religious minority here. It's not really as clever as you thought it was when you made the thread.

Besides, you have to understand the mindset and the cultural views of the diety before you can decide whether it's real. That's what we (mostly me and JohnlennonII) are doing.


No solid proof? There, no god exists, you just said so.

[Chiri]

That's the stupidest thing I've seen you say on here in a while, and I've seen you say some pretty dumb stuff.

I said there's no solid proof. Did you not read the other 50 posts on this thread saying stuff like "absense of proof is not proof of absense?" You should take that kind of stuff into consideration. All these posts are going to prove is that you're just too close minded to accept anything else. Perhaps you should also take into account the fact that everyone knows and accepts there is not yet (and probably never will be) 'solid' proof of God. You're way behind the times.

You also missed the whole point of my last post, about it fostering helpful debate. So far, I've learned a lot about various views of religion from TotalAnarchyUK and JohnLennonII, such as societal ideas and some arguments against the existence of God and organized religion. What have I learned from you? That you can pick at this because it's an easy topic to support from the athiest perspective.

I even learned from TotalAnarchyUK that I can sell a picture of my dick to National Geographic as a new type of tiny caterpillar that will make me lots of money in some kind of new, weird porn.

[ramalamafafafa]

That's the stupidest thing I've seen you say on here in a while, and I've seen you say some pretty dumb stuff.

I said there's no solid proof. Did you not read the other 50 posts on this thread saying stuff like "absense of proof is not proof of absense?" You should take that kind of stuff into consideration. All these posts are going to prove is that you're just too close minded to accept anything else. Perhaps you should also take into account the fact that everyone knows and accepts there is not yet (and probably never will be) 'solid' proof of God. You're way behind the times.

You also missed the whole point of my last post, about it fostering helpful debate. So far, I've learned a lot about various views of religion from TotalAnarchyUK and JohnLennonII, such as societal ideas and some arguments against the existence of God and organized religion. What have I learned from you? That you can pick at this because it's an easy topic to support from the athiest perspective.

I even learned from TotalAnarchyUK that I can sell a picture of my dick to National Geographic as a new type of tiny caterpillar that will make me lots of money in some kind of new, weird porn.


Listen shitwit:

The church exerts an obscene amount of influence worldwide. This is based on a fear of god(s). if the world id to be kept in fear of this god(s), why shouldn't those dumb enough to be devoted to him (and therefore force their will onto others) be forced to provide proof? It's logical to assume that, without proof of existance, something (god) does not exist.


So, try not to miss the point of the thread next time, huh?

[JohnLennonII]

Emily, the universe could have existed forever.
Stephen Hawking thinks so at least.

Chiri, a book you might be interested in reading is "New Mathematics." I forget who it is by, but it's all about how incredibly complex systems can arise from enormously simple parameters and just a small disturbance.
Even then, sometimes no disturbance is needed.
It's all based on the science of cellular automata.
An interesting (but chunky) read.

Basically, something as complex as man could have arose from natural processes.

If you take the Bible to be true, as the word of God spoken through man, then you have to take the fact that when God condemns someone he puts his wrath on them.
You also have to understand that I speak from different perspectives, and I always try to make it clear that I do not believe something if I don't believe it.
I brought up the God example from the Bible because people who believe in the existence of the Judeo-Christian God and take the Bible to be true would have to say that those things happened, unless you wanted to put it all on allegory, in which case the Bible becomes hopelessly difficult to interperet.

Point is, there are so many logical contradictions, especially involving God being outside of time, that belief in Him requires suspending a good deal of logic and common sense.
I'm not going to tell you what to believe, but I don't see how God can exist as he is described in the Bible.

[freetibet]

Listen shitwit:

The church exerts an obscene amount of influence worldwide. This is based on a fear of god(s). if the world id to be kept in fear of this god(s), why shouldn't those dumb enough to be devoted to him (and therefore force their will onto others) be forced to provide proof? It's logical to assume that, without proof of existance, something (god) does not exist.

uh... the church? Which church are you talking about?

I'm assuming you mean catholics... and if you're stupid enough to think all theists are catholic, well then thats your problem.

I believe the bible is filled with useful information for people to use. I don't let any priest, cardinal, or pope tell me what to believe though.

I think you just got it in your head from an early age that communism was the answer, and your incapable of giving other world views a serious chance. So you come up with ridiculous statements like, nobody can prove love exists, so that means nobody as ever been in love.

[Chiri]

Rammed by a llama, I didn't miss the point of the thread. I just don't care about your question now that I'm arguing more abstract and intelligent points. I was explaining why we were talking about other stuff (basically because your original thread idea is retarded) and you went off on how I somehow proved there's no God. That's 12 year old material right there.

JohnlennonII, that's exactly why people have to decide what the bible means to them and how much they want to take literally. Personally, I agree with freetibet to some extent. It has a lot of good basic moral teachings, such as christianity's golden rule about treating a neighbour as you would want to be treated. That's beside the point though. The bible is not meant to be taken literally, it's only a book of guidance. If it told us EXACTLY how to live our lives, it would be taking away another fundamental belief of christianity: free will.

[continmouthcalipso]

who gives a shit.. believe in karma and fate and fuck prayin to some god to make it right. make it right yourself and if some asswipe is behind all the fuck ups and chaos in this world i dont want to meet him/her anyfuckinway.

[Chiri]

That's an okay philosophy, but you look like a douchebag when you put "fuck" 3 times into a 30 or so word message. That was also even more offtopic than anything else in this post.

[ramalamafafafa]

uh... the church? Which church are you talking about?

I'm assuming you mean catholics... and if you're stupid enough to think all theists are catholic, well then thats your problem.

I believe the bible is filled with useful information for people to use. I don't let any priest, cardinal, or pope tell me what to believe though.

I think you just got it in your head from an early age that communism was the answer, and your incapable of giving other world views a serious chance. So you come up with ridiculous statements like, nobody can prove love exists, so that means nobody as ever been in love.

The church is a wide description of all organised religion.

Religion is an outdated, frankly stupid part of human society. The amount of suffering caused by it and it's followers in just disgusting.

The bible is great paperweight, and the Minature ones have been known to function as decent rolling papers. That's about all it's good for.

What the fuck has Communism got to do with this? And, umm, dipshit, i grew up in Australia, a country with a vastly de-regulated Capitalist economy. So, got what into my head?

[TotalAnarchyUK]

So you come up with ridiculous statements like, nobody can prove love exists, so that means nobody as ever been in love.

The big fucking purple dinosaur lied to me!
Barney! I will consume your soul!!

[freetibet]

The church is a wide description of all organised religion.

Religion is an outdated, frankly stupid part of human society. The amount of suffering caused by it and it's followers in just disgusting.

The bible is great paperweight, and the Minature ones have been known to function as decent rolling papers. That's about all it's good for.

What the fuck has Communism got to do with this? And, umm, dipshit, i grew up in Australia, a country with a vastly de-regulated Capitalist economy. So, got what into my head?

well MAYBE the catholic church is a wide description of organised religion, but it isn't a a description of all religion.

The bible can help you find peace, so can many other religious texts. just because your incapable of considering other points of view doesn't mean your right about everything.

and communism has something to do with it because communism supports atheism. karl marx was an atheist, and he thought the ideal society would be atheist too. So to be a true Marxist, you must be atheist.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

karl marx was an atheist, and he thought the ideal society would be atheist too. So to be a true Marxist, you must be atheist.

That speaks wonders for atheists, as communism was probably the best idea ever written down. It just failed in practice.

At the same time, to be a true christian you should belive all whats in the bible.

victory dance.

[ramalamafafafa]

well MAYBE the catholic church is a wide description of organised religion, but it isn't a a description of all religion.

The bible can help you find peace, so can many other religious texts. just because your incapable of considering other points of view doesn't mean your right about everything.

and communism has something to do with it because communism supports atheism. karl marx was an atheist, and he thought the ideal society would be atheist too. So to be a true Marxist, you must be atheist.

Christian Communism does exist. Your point is invalid. Shut the fuck up.

The bible can help me find "peace"? What the fuck is that?





**Hi-Fives Total Anarchy**

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Barney! I will consume your soul!!

*licks lips* Oh, sorry dude, did you wanna eat that? uhh.... awkward.




I was about to chime in, but it looks like you guys have this pretty well contained. Well done!

[ramalamafafafa]

I was about to chime in, but it looks like you guys have this pretty well contained. Well done!

Meh, we could always use another with a grasp on reality to counter Freetibet and co.'s ramblings.

[Chiri]

That speaks wonders for atheists, as communism was probably the best idea ever written down. It just failed in practice.

At the same time, to be a true christian you should belive all whats in the bible.

victory dance.

Communism was probably the best idea ever written down, except that it failed in practice? Seriously? I'm going to give you a "roflol" and see if you can figure that one out for yourself.

Another thing...You, as a self-proclaimed person who knows and cares little about my religion are telling us that true christians believe everything in the bible? You even thought you deserved some sort of victory for that? I'll give you another roflol for this one.

Rammed-a-llama, I'd say Freetibet still has the better of you there. You just responded with a little bit of communism nonsense and whatnot.

Llama-rammer and TotalAnarchyUK are responding with things like

'Christian Communism does exist. Your point is invalid. Shut the fuck up.

The bible can help me find "peace"? What the fuck is that?'

Not only is this the shittiest debating I've ever seen, but I think they need your help Neb.

[ramalamafafafa]

Communism was probably the best idea ever written down, except that it failed in practice? Seriously? I'm going to give you a "roflol" and see if you can figure that one out for yourself.

Rammed-a-llama, I'd say Freetibet still has the better of you there. You just responded with a little bit of communism nonsense and whatnot.

I disproved his arguements (or attempts at). So, you're wrong.

Now, as for the thread subject, the only 'proof' presented has been Freetibet's 'i feel god, he's in my head' nonsense. That's well and good, but why are arguements against abortion/gay marriages presented which use "god says it's evil" as a justification, when, as freetibet and others on his side of things have pointed out, god exists only in the minds of the faithful?

[Chiri]

Which leads me to my original question...did you ever think you were going to find physical, tangible, proof of God in this thread at any time?

What was the whole point of asking this question?

[ramalamafafafa]

Which leads me to my original question...did you ever think you were going to find physical, tangible, proof of God in this thread at any time?

What was the whole point of asking this question?

I'm quite aware that no tangible proof of god exists, which, as logic suggests, means no god exists. This thread exists for the purpose of proving, through the ramblings of religious idiots, that no god exists. Therefore, the thread has served it's purpose in full.

[Chiri]

So this thread is meant to be a mockery of someone's faith since you perceive God to be a total impossibility? This reminds me, believing in God gives you a little bit of a different way of looking at the world. It teaches you to accept things you can't change, and to live with people of other varying degrees of religious opinions I suppose.

Anyhow, this thread didn't really prove any of what you said. It gave a few different people's outlooks on the existence of God and religion and various parts of the doctrine, but it did nothing to prove or disprove anything. If you were a true athiest, you would see that it takes tangible proof to disprove things as well.

Oh, one more argument for you. Let's say I burn something right to ashes, and then scatter the ashes, and those ashes are eventually broken down and absorbed into the earth as everything is within the cycle of nature. You would never find proof of it's existence by piecing together pieces that were spread so far apart, absorbed by thousands of years of wind and weather. The dust to dust concept basically. Does that mean it never existed?

[ramalamafafafa]

So this thread is meant to be a mockery of someone's faith since you perceive God to be a total impossibility? This reminds me, believing in God gives you a little bit of a different way of looking at the world. It teaches you to accept things you can't change, and to live with people of other varying degrees of religious opinions I suppose.

Anyhow, this thread didn't really prove any of what you said. It gave a few different people's outlooks on the existence of God and religion and various parts of the doctrine, but it did nothing to prove or disprove anything. If you were a true athiest, you would see that it takes tangible proof to disprove things as well.

Oh, one more argument for you. Let's say I burn something right to ashes, and then scatter the ashes, and those ashes are eventually broken down and absorbed into the earth as everything is within the cycle of nature. You would never find proof of it's existence by piecing together pieces that were spread so far apart, absorbed by thousands of years of wind and weather. The dust to dust concept basically. Does that mean it never existed?

I have already stated the point of the thread. Try reading posts, dear. Learning to accept unfavourable matters is not a good thing, as is not bothering to question. "it teaches you...... to live with people of other varying degrees of religious opinions I suppose"? What a fucking crock, people of differing religions wouldn't kill each other if this was true. So, that's utter bullshit, nothing more.

Making a wild claim (such as "god exists") requires proof, it is not required of those who doubt your theroies to disprove your absurd claim. Zamato said it better than i:

Let's look at this argument logically for a second:
You are right, religions have failed to provide evidence to god's existence. Therefore, we have reason to believe God does NOT exist:...

Let's create an example:
Person A: "Magic Pink Unicorns exist."

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "Prove that it doesn't exist."

Person B: "I can't."

Person A: "Then the magical pink unicorn exists!"



The logic of the faithful is outlined above. It is idiotic at best


God, according to religious theories, still exists. So where is he?

In other words, your points and arguements are utter bollocks.

/Debate.

[Chiri]

Nah, not going to try because you're just too close minded. I liked arguing with JohnLennonII and even TotalAnarchyUK a bit, but this is just stupid.

I think that you believe you have some kind of creative new idea here, but you aren't really any different than any other asshole throughout history. In fact, you're pretty common. There will always be athiests that attack other people's views, then point out the brutality of the catholic religion.

[ramalamafafafa]

Nah, not going to try because you're just too close minded. I liked arguing with JohnLennonII and even TotalAnarchyUK a bit, but this is just stupid.

I think that you believe you have some kind of creative new idea here, but you aren't really any different than any other asshole throughout history. In fact, you're pretty common. There will always be athiests that attack other people's views, then point out the brutality of the catholic religion.

What, no response?

And what the has the catholic church got to do with this, i have not mentioned it once in this thread.


Hehehe, nice to see you've no proper response then.....

[Myth230]

LaVeyan Satanist to the rescue, there is proof God doesn't exist,it's you and me,evolution disproved Creationism, astrology disproved the backwards idea that God lives in a Heaven in the sky, what else do you want?Also on another note the Bible's teachings provide useless morals and ethics that restrict logical thought, common sense, and general enjoyment of human life;examples:no premarital sex, no adultery, no searching into the occult(you shall have no god or gods before me)which occult actually means forbidden knowledge;why should some deity tell what I can and cannot learn;additionally why can't a woman have the choice of giving birth or not or, why can't(as much I hate gays) fags be able to enjoy their faggotry?

P.S. I am aware that the examples i used in the beginning are old, but they are still just as important as they were at their discovery. Feel free to continue throwing your rambling about faith in fairy tales, though. Also if you are about to reply saying I believe in any type of deity or entity named Satan, you should look up what the HUGE difference between LaVeyan Satanism and Theistic Satanism is.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

Communism was probably the best idea ever written down, except that it failed in practice? Seriously? I'm going to give you a "roflol" and see if you can figure that one out for yourself.

Another thing...You, as a self-proclaimed person who knows and cares little about my religion are telling us that true christians believe everything in the bible? You even thought you deserved some sort of victory for that? I'll give you another roflol for this one.

Communism is a good idea ( if you need to look up "idea" in a dictionary go ahead because you clearly dont understand it.)

I do the dance of victory, because I give not one shit what you think or that you belive in the magical bearded man floating in the sky. I laugh at you, as deluded as you are.

[freetibet]

The logic of the faithful is outlined above. It is idiotic at best

God, according to religious theories, still exists. So where is he?

In other words, your points and arguements are utter bollocks.

/Debate.

well I don't think you not being able to disprove god means god is proven to exist. I just believe God exists and if you don't want to believe in god then whatever, don't really care.

and since you brought up the unicorns thing again, i thought i'd bring up my rebuttal to it:

Person A: "I'm in love!"

Person B: "Prove it!"

Person A: "wtf I don't need to prove i'm in love I just feel it"

Person B: "ha so you admit there is no proof you are in love, that means you aren't in love"

Person A: "you're weird"

Person B "the burden of proof falls on the person making a positive statment. kinda like saying unicorns exist..."

Person A: "stfu dumbass"

and why do you feel the need to say the debate is over after every post you make? Seriously... Its like you know your wrong so instead of admitting it you say things like "i'm right, just get over it" or "/debate"

[ramalamafafafa]

well I don't think you not being able to disprove god means god is proven to exist. I just believe God exists and if you don't want to believe in god then whatever, don't really care.

and since you brought up the unicorns thing again, i thought i'd bring up my rebuttal to it:



and why do you feel the need to say the debate is over after every post you make? Seriously... Its like you know your wrong so instead of admitting it you say things like "i'm right, just get over it" or "/debate"

Your rebuttle missed the point. Horribly. Like, if the thread was New York, your rebuttle was Poland.

And, i say those things because i have beaten you idiots. Less so with saj, but still beaten...

[freetibet]

beaten? you think that if something isn't proven beyond a doubt, that it doesn't exist.

I think its impossible to beat anyone with an argument like that.

[ramalamafafafa]

beaten? you think that if something isn't proven beyond a doubt, that it doesn't exist.

I think its impossible to beat anyone with an argument like that.

Just show me something!



Oh, right, it's not there. Y'know, because there is no god...