religious debate thread

[crazyassmetalhead]

too many threads turn into it so let's take the shitstorm here.

any arguments concerning religion, lack of religion, philosophy........whatever.

do it here.





this should be fun.

[Bartnewtron]

FUck jews? fuck isreal? fuck christians?

[Buddha]

Jesus was a black man in the desert that heard voices.

[Bartnewtron]

HEll ya he was.
But no seriously, fuck isreal.

[Basarab]

I dno't think there is a god, but there most definitely are more advanced forms of life in this vast universe in which we live.

[Cake]

Jesus was a zombie terrorist. Muslims are retarded, Jews are really aliens, buddists are too peacefull, toaists are hippies, pagan/wiccans are brainwashed outcasts, Voodoo is cool......thats all i can think of ATM im Agnostic so fuck you.

[mojo_1]

Organised religion is just an excuse for spineless, brainless people to feel better about themselves. If they stuff up in their life, or something goes wrong, they can just pass the blame right on to their god. If however, a particular religion makes someone do good and have strong morals, then I will accept that. I however, think that religion is ridiculous and believe that the idea of a divine being who created and rules over the world/universe/whatever is very extre***y unlikely. When we die, there is no fanciful "afterlife" or "heaven" or whatever, we just decay away and turn back into the earth, like every other living creature.

[Phoenix Fire]

Life is simple.
Eat.
Sleep.
Fuck mojo.
Die.

[Cake]

Lol its so great isnt it?

[freetibet]

Organised religion is just an excuse for spineless, brainless people to feel better about themselves. If they stuff up in their life, or something goes wrong, they can just pass the blame right on to their god. If however, a particular religion makes someone do good and have strong morals, then I will accept that. I however, think that religion is ridiculous and believe that the idea of a divine being who created and rules over the world/universe/whatever is very extre***y unlikely.

organized religion or regular religion?

I think its stupid to criticize someone for asking why things are the way they are. I mean even when Catholics were burning heretics at the stake they allowed certain questions.

When we die, there is no fanciful "afterlife" or "heaven" or whatever, we just decay away and turn back into the earth, like every other living creature.

You realize that religion and this way of thinking are not mutually exclusive right?

[mojo_1]

OK, i just spent time actually formulating an understandable summary of some of my thoughts about religion (and trust me, it was hard! I never let out my opinions, unless they are entertaining) and that is what you have to say in response Phoenix!

I do, however, agree with what you said! Life is very simple, eat, sleep, fuck me, die... Also, entertain my mind and destabilize the idiotic morons that society is made up of at the moment.

[Phoenix Fire]

Sounds good.

Lets go smoke a bowl babe.

[freetibet]

@mojo
so you decide to compare Christians to lemmings because you like to keep things simple?

wtf haha

[Phoenix Fire]

It's another term for "Sheep to the Slaughter"
Lemmings live there lives only to be fucked over in the end.
Aka "Christians"

[mojo_1]

Yes, and Christians ARE Lemmings- they get told to believe or do something by their god or their church or their minister or their pope or their priest, and they do, with out any questioning or thinking for themselves.

Also, fuck yeh lets smoke a bowl!

[Phoenix Fire]

Damned christians...



Yeah, we'll smoke two, then give me some lovin.

[freetibet]

Yes, and Christians ARE Lemmings- they get told to believe or do something by their god or their church or their minister or their pope or their priest, and they do, with out any questioning or thinking for themselves.

Your thinking of organized religion...

I believe in Christ's words but I have thought way more about religion than you have I'm sure.

There are also lots of atheists who just believe what they do because its what everyone else does.

[Cake]

"While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not the case. Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat.[7] On occasion, and particularly in the case of the Norway lemmings in Scandinavia, large migrating groups will reach a cliff overlooking the ocean. They will stop until the urge to press on causes them to jump off the cliff and start swimming, sometimes to exhaustion and death. Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore"

Thats funny....i want a video of them just JUMPING off cliffs in hundreds

[Buddha]

"While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not the case. Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat.[7] On occasion, and particularly in the case of the Norway lemmings in Scandinavia, large migrating groups will reach a cliff overlooking the ocean. They will stop until the urge to press on causes them to jump off the cliff and start swimming, sometimes to exhaustion and death. Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore"

Thats funny....i want a video of them just JUMPING off cliffs in hundreds

You and me both.

[freetibet]

anything that involves lots of tiny mammals dying gruesome deaths is something i'd like to see :D

[mojo_1]

Tibet- you probably have thought way more about religion than I have.Though, there is reason why I think about religion (especially christianity) the way I do.

I was brought up in a small country town, everyone devoted Christians. I was sent to a catholic school, brainwashed as a kid into believing, a great deal of my friends are different varieties of Christian... So I dont actually have issues with people who believe in Jesus' words, if it makes them generally good people. It is just the others, who go around proclaiming idiocy to society, trying to force their views onto the every body else, not being able to see that other people may have their own sets of morals and beliefs...

Also, Cake, I meant the old computer game.

[Phoenix Fire]

Can we quit talking about religion and fuck already?

[freetibet]

Tibet- you probably have thought way more about religion than I have.Though, there is reason why I think about religion (especially christianity) the way I do.

I was brought up in a small country town, everyone devoted Christians. I was sent to a catholic school, brainwashed as a kid into believing, a great deal of my friends are different varieties of Christian... So I dont actually have issues with people who believe in Jesus' words, if it makes them generally good people. It is just the others, who go around proclaiming idiocy to society, trying to force their views onto the every body else, not being able to see that other people may have their own sets of morals and beliefs...

Also, Cake, I meant the old computer game.

I can see why you'd be hostile towards chrisitianity. I was also forced to go to a private religoius school when i was very young. I've also had countless people treat me like crap because I didn't believe the way they did.

You just have to realize your typical christian today does not follow the words of christ

[crazyassmetalhead]

nobody really does cause even if jesus did exist, the bible wasn't even recorded in writing until after his death, and then changed, revised and edited countless times afterwards

and then even after that people have different interpretations of everything.


so that's why the only thing bibles are good for is rolling papers in a pinch

[Phoenix Fire]

Bible glossary burns wonderful .

[freetibet]

nobody really does cause even if jesus did exist, the bible wasn't even recorded in writing until after his death, and then changed, revised and edited countless times afterwards

and then even after that people have different interpretations of everything.


so that's why the only thing bibles are good for is rolling papers in a pinch

Well if you know how to get the original greek translations you can get pretty close to Christ's original words.

and even if the bible is all made up its still useful since its had such an impact on the world. Even an atheist should be able to ackowledge the impact the bible has had. So it's definitely worth a lot more than just rolling papers

[Cake]

My grandma told me i was going to hell cuz she caught me smokin a J out of bible paper on it...i laughed and told her i was already there.

[mojo_1]

I accept and tolerate people who are genuine Christians, and I don't think of them as ignorant and stupid. I admire them, because they do as they preach, they are good people stick to their beliefs, and accept others the way they are. It is just the self-righteous, bible-bashing, do-what-i-say-think-what-i-believe-otherwise-you-burn-in-hell type who force crap down peoples throats, and the ones that believe them, and eventually turn into them, that I cant handle.

[crazyassmetalhead]

clearly you've never really needed rolling papers badly before.....cause damn

and yes it's had an impact, but a largely negative one if you look at the fall of rome to the degeneration into the dark ages and years of largescale war and genocide throughout

[Cake]

I quit going to church n became agnostic cuz it was FORCED on me

[mojo_1]

Well that will certainly teach you for not thinking for yourself and doing what other people tell you to do

[cstrikehero]

CHRISTIANs don't force their beleifs on anyone. missionarys are sent out and what they should be doing, is telling you wat needs to be said, and letting you have your own choice.

if you choose not to believe its your problem.. you might change your mind after the rapture but by then itl prolly be too late..

think about it.. if there is a god and your a christian , then you go to heaven, if u arnt the u burn,

if theres no god, then you die and turn into dirt.. big surprise there..
really what have you got to lose?

the problem with all of you people is all you hear is the emergant church sermons and the crappy sermos.. none of you has ever heard a good one, which you have to go to SDYC or somewher like that to hear... i tell you what, when ur in hell you'll look across a great divide and see us in heaven havin a party without you while you undergo EXTREME physical and mental torment for the rest of eternity (very long by the way)

the emergant church is the cult that is somehow leaking into churches around the nation.. where everyone drinks the punch to go meet the savior in the sky.. it says straight up in the bible suicide is wrong.. but like i said.. its your choice and noone (should) hammer it into you.. but it appreciate if youd shut your mouth about what i believe if you cant contribute anything good out of your big ass mouths..

[freetibet]

and yes it's had an impact, but a largely negative one if you look at the fall of rome to the degeneration into the dark ages and years of largescale war and genocide throughout

The only thing that kept the post roman world from falling apart was the church. All the learning institutes the roman's used were destroyed by goths, germans, etc. Religion is what kept learning going.

I'm not a big fan of the catholic church but the bible has undoubtable done good things for civilization

I accept and tolerate people who are genuine Christians, and I don't think of them as ignorant and stupid. I admire them, because they do as they preach, they are good people stick to their beliefs, and accept others the way they are. It is just the self-righteous, bible-bashing, do-what-i-say-think-what-i-believe-otherwise-you-burn-in-hell type who force crap down peoples throats, and the ones that believe them, and eventually turn into them, that I cant handle.

Then why are you bashing on all Christians?

[mojo_1]

Then why are you bashing on all Christians?

Ha Ok- I am not bashing on all Christians. Just most of them. And I do know that there are decent ones out there.

[freetibet]

Ha Ok- I am not bashing on all Christians. Just most of them. And I do know that there are decent ones out there.

Then why not change your signature to something like...

mormons? they remind me of lemmings

much more accurate lol

[mojo_1]

Ok then- I knew there would be at least one person who would point out that fact. I hoped there would, anyway!

[freetibet]

Ok then- I knew there would be at least one person who would point out that fact. I hoped there would, anyway!

I have no idea what you just said...

[crazyassmetalhead]

"The only thing that kept the post roman world from falling apart was the church. All the learning institutes the roman's used were destroyed by goths, germans, etc. Religion is what kept learning going.

I'm not a big fan of the catholic church but the bible has undoubtable done good things for civilization"


so the romans must have thought the earth was flat, bathing and open air caused sickness? the christians didn't cause the fall of the roman empire (largely the romans did, much like the U.S. is doing now), but they did plunge the european world into the dark ages and keep them there for a few hundred years......shit in mainy ways we're still there


and cstrikehero, like buddha said in the other thread, no one here wants to join your cult

[ramalamafafafa]

Religion is just business: It's a way to sell shit to idiots.

Religion has done the world any good. But it has done the world some unbelivable evil.

Religion is a way to subdue a populus. Most religions are based upon the idea of blind acceptance and faith, a belief which fits in very well with the policies of most Western Governments...

[crazyassmetalhead]

ya, shit even the greeks and romans used religion to control their people. my point being that at least they were still able to accomplisg things because their religion didn't halt intellectual and scientific development with the stigma of strict morals and such...

now we have moralist values affecting things they actually have no part of, like stem cell research, abortion, gay rights, and of course allowing for things like censorship and laws based on morality to exist.

so when a religion impededs the growth of the society that accepts it than it is not serving its purpose.....or serving its purpose too well. idk depends on the circumstances i guess.

[cstrikehero]

and cstrikehero, like buddha said in the other thread, no one here wants to join your cult
FIRST:
Stop calling it a cult because its not..
SECOND:
and im not trying to get you to join.. i would like you all the believe in Christ but if you dont want to its your choice.. ive said that like 20 times already...

[DoG MikkyW]

This won't be a debate, it will be a religious massacre. (Ironic that the Christians are such hypocritical beings.) Anyways, I posted this in another thread.

OK, the bible is the book of god, right? Wrong. The bible is a book that has been changed over the course of 4000+ years to suit whomever was carrying these stories. The bible was not made into one book until the mid 1st millennium by the Romans. For 2500 years and sooner, the words of the bible had been carried mainly by word. Have you ever played the game telephone? Picture that, but you know how easy it is to miss a word? Now picture playing 2500 years of telephone. What about the words that were written down? Many of these lost at least 3/4 of their true meanings through the various translations from Hebrew to Latin to Arabic to etc. And many of these were discarded for the fact that many people disagree. I'm making this up? That might be what you're thinking. OK, then explain this. The bible says that the first woman on earth, the first woman to be with Adam, was Eve. This is not true. The first woman on earth (at least according to these crack pot scriptures) was Lilith. Why was Lilith excluded? Because Roman Emperor Constantine didn't like that in the scriptures, Adam and Lilith were equal. Man and Woman with equal status? Preposterous.

[cstrikehero]

id like to take a look at your sources of information

[Pactum]

I think the bible is a bunch of bullshit.
This book is supposedly 2000 years old, so it has gone through the same amount editing.
Years ago, when humans were still somewhat barbaric, religion was slowly introduced to control the masses, to instigate fear in the people, so that people wouldn't get out of control.
There is no need for that nowadays. People today are becoming so hooked on this idea of religion that it is becoming a cult

[cstrikehero]

you guys have all been brainwashed.. you wanna burn, its your problem, ive said what needs to be said. and im done

[DoG MikkyW]

My sources are the history channel, and the archeological community, the archeological community is the one that has found the scrolls, and the history channel has dug up all the rest of the supporting history. Let me ask you this, did evolution happen? It is impossible to improve that evolution happens, humans didn't start out, humans lie, etc. The bible is based on so many false pretenses, it's ridiculous. Now, state one bible-specific point that can be proven scientifically.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I think religion, and life in general, makes a lot more sense if you just step back and look at things in perspective. For example, there's Christianity; Many Christians hold the root belief that there's an all-knowing and all-powerful god who loves every one of us and has a divine plan we cannot change. The same people think that this god will send us to BURN for ETERNITY if we deviate from a destiny that they believe we cannot deviate from. I think I'll reiterate that, because it sounded vaguely important: The all-knowing god has a divine plan for all of us, and he loves everyone. Yet, one wrong move and god's loved ones are burning in hell. I appeal to you as rational human beings; does that sound like the world of a benevolent intelligence, or a tool to keep people in line?

Furthermore, many derive great comfort from religion, believing that somewhere, someone cares. This is a very helpful thought in times of stress or grief, even when no one actually, you know, cares. So, thus we must weigh our options. Is it more likely that a supreme being created the world and watches over all of us, never communicating except through the tales of one book, or that a very frightened future religious person found security in the thought of a heavenly father and decided to share his ideas?

There's this one devout christian in my grade; me and my atheist classmates treasure our hour-long arguments and contradictions. Also, I have to put up with my family's tolerance of a Jehovah's Witness uncle who occasionally passes out propaganda. If this "god" really exists, he probably shouldn't let his faithful squirm and twist in the crushing grip of reason. :D

[DoG MikkyW]

Nebuchadnezzar, I propose an alliance, to reasonably, without intended malice, debate with any christian or any other religions' followers as they try to argue as to why their religion is somehow true.

[freetibet]

so the romans must have thought the earth was flat, bathing and open air caused sickness? the christians didn't cause the fall of the roman empire (largely the romans did, much like the U.S. is doing now), but they did plunge the european world into the dark ages and keep them there for a few hundred years......shit in mainy ways we're still there


and cstrikehero, like buddha said in the other thread, no one here wants to join your cult

where in the bible does it say the earth is flat and bathing in open air causes sickness?

You seem very confused about what causes superstition...

This book is supposedly 2000 years old, so it has gone through the same amount editing.
Years ago, when humans were still somewhat barbaric, religion was slowly introduced to control the masses, to instigate fear in the people, so that people wouldn't get out of control.
There is no need for that nowadays. People today are becoming so hooked on this idea of religion that it is becoming a cult

Religion existed before christinity you know... When people want to control you with religion it is much easier to say a goat's entrails say something than to tell them to be kind to their fellow man.

and it wasn't "slowly introduced", the romans started out killing Christians remember? what kind of emperor starts killing the people who are supposedly doing what he wants them to?

[DoG MikkyW]

Good god tibet, I thought you would know about Constantine enough to know that he changed Romes official religion to Christianity, but there was a good 500 year gap between this and the supposed birth of Christianity in which Christians were openly killed.

[freetibet]

Good god tibet, I thought you would know about Constantine enough to know that he changed Romes official religion to Christianity, but there was a good 500 year gap between this and the supposed birth of Christianity in which Christians were openly killed.

Ya i know Constantine changed the state religion to Christianity. He also changed the roman's war flag to say alpha and omega. I know loads about that stuff. What have I said to suggest I didn't know about Constantine?

[Pactum]

Religion existed before christinity you know... When people want to control you with religion it is much easier to say a goat's entrails say something than to tell them to be kind to their fellow man.

and it wasn't "slowly introduced", the romans started out killing Christians remember? what kind of emperor starts killing the people who are supposedly doing what he wants them to?
I know, just using that as an example

I can't remember which Roman emperor (might now have been Roman... hahaha) it was exactly, but i remember one was editing the bible in an attempt the control the masses.

*EDIT* ^^ just saw the post above, I'm pretty sure it was Constantine.

you guys have all been brainwashed.. you wanna burn, its your problem, ive said what needs to be said. and im done
We've been brainwashed? Says the guy who believes in a religion.

[freetibet]

We've been brainwashed? Says the guy who believes in a religion.

Asking why things are the way they are does not mean you're brainwashed. I guarantee you I've spent much more time thinking about religion (including atheism) than you have.

It is just as possible for a atheist to be 'brainwashed' as it is for a religious person.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Nebuchadnezzar, I propose an alliance, to reasonably, without intended malice, debate with any christian or any other religions' followers as they try to argue as to why their religion is somehow true.

Sounds like plan.

[Cake]

I was watching something on the history or discovery channel n it said Jesus had siblings n he was a Hand worker(Like a mexican) not a carpenter.

[cstrikehero]

Now, state one bible-specific point that can be proven scientifically.

In a good brief description of world-wide air movements and the hydrologic water cycles of the weather, we read, "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7). In similar manner, Job 36:27-28 says, "He (God) draws up the drops of water, which distill into rain from the vapor; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind," which is a statement from 1500 B.C. ---It wasn't until data and measurements were taken all over entire hemispheres of the globe in our modern era that such an understanding of the hydrological cycle and world air-currents was achieved, and then once again, the Bible is confirmed as correct.

... but i remember one was editing the bible in an attempt the control the masses.


And you think people are just stupid enough to say, "here Ceaser.. have our one and only copy of the original bible!".. yeah right!!!

And all you fools who's source is the history channel, you honestly believe everything you hear on TV, well then your stupid.. its pathetic really what some of you people think

[DoG MikkyW]

Meh, haven't done this in a while.

In a good brief description of world-wide air movements and the hydrologic water cycles of the weather, we read, "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again" (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7).
Amazing, they were able to see that water circulated in a semi-closed system by observing. Unless of course the claim here is that "god" only gives acute powers of observation the Christians, and damns the rest.
In similar manner, Job 36:27-28 says, "He (God) draws up the drops of water, which distill into rain from the vapor; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind," which is a statement from 1500 B.C.
Ok, part of that can be proven scientifically. But how, in any way shape or form, can it be proven scientifically that god is responsible for that? Anyways, I digress.
---It wasn't until data and measurements were taken all over entire hemispheres of the globe in our modern era that such an understanding of the hydrological cycle and world air-currents was achieved, and then once again, the Bible is confirmed as correct.
The bible is the path to enlightenment because it states some obvious scientifically provable points that have nothing to do with whether god exists? Riveting.

My turn, explain how evolution happened, and how it can be scientifically proven that humans didn't exist on earth. Either that, or state why your religion is right, in spite of the proof against it.



And you think people are just stupid enough to say, "here Ceaser.. have our one and only copy of the original bible!".. yeah right!!!

And all you fools who's source is the history channel, you honestly believe everything you hear on TV, well then your stupid.. its pathetic really what some of you people think[/QUOTE]

[freetibet]

your missing the point of religion mikky. It isn't about proving a man in the sky, its about asking why things are the way they are. So ya you can't prove scientifically why we exist, obviously, but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

It is impossible for me to prove to you that God exists. Only you can prove to yourself that God exists. That's because I can't explain the feelings associated with God, but I can feel them myself.

[cstrikehero]

freetibet,
thanks for at least being open and not bashing me..

but seriously, can you find any HARD evidence that proves God is a fake? Something that didn't come off the HIST channel or some other crap like that?

THERE IS NONE!!!

and if you find something that you think might contradict Christianity explain in your own words, no help from google, why it does..

chances are its crap..

[freetibet]

I believe in Christ...

and i as far as I know there is no evidence that can be shown to the world to prove or disprove God.

It is possible to prove on a personal level though

[DoG MikkyW]

There is plenty of proof that the bible is fake, there could be a god, but he is not the god as is described in the bible then. Science has proven almost everything about the way we are, except how we got here, and science has about 3 good theories for that. Science has proven that man didn't exist first, that for 2 billion some odd years, it was just archaebacteria, and tons of CH4, N2, and plenty of other nasty gases. So I don't know if god exists, I do know that I don't believe in man, and the ability of man to tell the truth and be self sacrificial over a period of a couple millenia.

[Phoenix Fire]

Gods a stapler .

[freetibet]

There is plenty of proof that the bible is fake, there could be a god, but he is not the god as is described in the bible then. Science has proven almost everything about the way we are, except how we got here, and science has about 3 good theories for that. Science has proven that man didn't exist first, that for 2 billion some odd years, it was just archaebacteria, and tons of CH4, N2, and plenty of other nasty gases. So I don't know if god exists, I do know that I don't believe in man, and the ability of man to tell the truth and be self sacrificial over a period of a couple millenia.

could you present us with this proof?

FYI wikipedia doesn't count lol

[Phoenix Fire]

Freetibet, your the most biased close minded fuck here, next to supafly.

[cstrikehero]

ill use an example of why evolution and everything based from it is CRAP...

<**following conversation**>

hey Dr. G...

yes, Sarah?

how do we know how old fossils are?

well that's easy, by what layer of rock they are in.

ahh i see, wait, how do we know how old the rocks are?

oh thats easy too. By the fossils we find in them.

<**END**>

and tat why evolution is crap because everything, not just thi one example, is based on circular reasoning... Carbon dating is crap too.. a guy brought in some chicken bones, buried about a month and a half, and evolutionist carbon dated it to be over 1 million years old? yeah right...

i believe based on ti***ines from the bible, that the earth is not more than 10,000 years old

[Deetinator]

Have you all forgotten the Dead Sea Scrolls? Practically identical to modern biblical texts! Hows that for God's word never changing? And everyone agrees that those are at least 2000 years old.
And Nebuchadnezzar, your wrong, that's not God's plan. Accept Jesus, ask for forgiveness, and He'll forgive you no matter what, and He really does mean NO MATTER WHAT.
God speaks in many ways, not only His Word, if you'll keep your eyes open, and if you're ACTUALLY WILLING TO LISTEN.

[freetibet]

Freetibet, your the most biased close minded fuck here, next to supafly.

What you should have said was

"freetibet, we disagree"

I'm not close minded just because I believe something different than you.

[a2thae]

your missing the point of religion mikky. It isn't about proving a man in the sky, its about asking why things are the way they are. So ya you can't prove scientifically why we exist, obviously, but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist.

It is impossible for me to prove to you that God exists. Only you can prove to yourself that God exists.

There doesn't need to be a philosophical reasoning for everything, only a mechanical. I think I've argued this in a different thread as well..

"Why" questions are always eventually answered with "how" We are here because of evolution (how we came about...this one has scientific proof)

"God put us here," Is a HOW explanation, "Part of god's plan for the greater good" brings up another why question, and that is answered by either "you don't question god," (another why question) or "God made it so" which is a HOW answer..

I think you get the picture.

freetibet,
thanks for at least being open and not bashing me..

but seriously, can you find any HARD evidence that proves God is a fake? Something that didn't come off the HIST channel or some other crap like that?

THERE IS NONE!!!

and if you find something that you think might contradict Christianity explain in your own words, no help from google, why it does..

chances are its crap..

Find some HARD evidence that proves god is real. Something that doesn't come out of the bible or "some other crap like that".

THERE IS NONE!!!

What contradicts christianity is that there is no evidence to support that people have actually "felt" god other than people saying it. They can't prove it. People claim to have been abducted by UFOs all the time, when really they just experienced sleep paralysis etc.

They can "prove" it to themselves...but really they have no scientific basis, they just have a belief that they experienced something divine...

Like on mythbusters, the one where they made some batteries, and they put their hand on the metal and received a shock (batteries from egypt or something I don't really remember I was a little buzzed). They had a theory, back then people had no knowledge back then of electricity, they thought that it was "god" reaching out to them or them reaching out to them.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able, and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God.

-Epicurus-



The first statement is correct..if the definition of god is "omnipotency" then it can not be omnipotent if it can't accomplish even a single task... Epicurus ftw.

[freetibet]

There doesn't need to be a philosophical reasoning for everything, only a mechanical. I think I've argued this in a different thread as well..

"Why" questions are always eventually answered with "how" We are here because of evolution (how we came about...this one has scientific proof)

Or god put us here (how we came about...this one has no scientific proof).

I think you get the picture.

You don't have to think god put us here or anything like that to believe in religion.

I think science enhances religion actually, because it gives us more insight into God's nature. For instance, it is my opinion that when monkeys evolved into men that they created a creature that could go against god's will. Yet at the same time they created a creature that was finally capable of communing with God because men now had a concept of good and evil.

The old testament tried to use the Adam and Eve story to explain something like this, but now that we know about evolution we know the full story. So for me at least, science has helped to explain some of the 'why' answers in life.

Asking why things are the way they are though, never ever conflicts with science. That is because they are two completely different areas of study.

[a2thae]

You don't have to think god put us here or anything like that to believe in religion.

Never said you did. I was answering a "why" question of "Why are we here?"

I think science enhances religion actually, because it gives us more insight into God's nature. For instance, it is my opinion that when monkeys evolved into men that they created a creature that could go against god's will. Yet at the same time they created a creature that was finally capable of communing with God because men now had a concept of good and evil.

Religion and science do NOT go together. Science is based on PROOF, religion is based on BELIEFS.

You can have your opinions all you want, but until you prove it; the fact is that monkeys evolved into "men"(humans) because of natural selection or darwinism. Can't survive long enough to pass on your genes means you're doing the next generation a favor by not giving up your inferior genes...

The old testament tried to use the Adam and Eve story to explain something like this, but now that we know about evolution we know the full story. So for me at least, science has helped to explain some of the 'why' answers in life.

No, it has shown you the "how" and you drew conclusions based upon it. It did not explain the "why"

Asking why things are the way they are though, never ever conflicts with science. That is because they are two completely different areas of study.

I agree, "why" is more philosophy. But eventually it all comes down to only mechanical reasoning is necessary, not philosophical. Things eventually get explained, but as for a "purpose" of "why" we are here becomes fuzzy. Our purpose is to survive...or perhaps it is simply instinct not purpose, and purpose is abstract and thus relative.

[freetibet]

Never said you did. I was answering a "why" question of "Why are we here?"

My mistake...

Religion and science do NOT go together. Science is based on PROOF, religion is based on BELIEFS.

but science can be used to help you find answers to religious questions.

You can have your opinions all you want, but until you prove it; the fact is that monkeys evolved into "men"(humans) because of natural selection or darwinism. Can't survive long enough to pass on your genes means you're doing the next generation a favor by not giving up your inferior genes...

Ya, I can't prove it, didn't I already say that?

No, it has shown you the "how" and you drew conclusions based upon it. It did not explain the "why"

I drew conclusions to help explain a why. It isn't the only answer to this particular why, but it is an answer.

I agree, "why" is more philosophy. But eventually it all comes down to only mechanical reasoning is necessary, not philosophical. Things eventually get explained, but as for a "purpose" of "why" we are here becomes fuzzy. Our purpose is to survive...or perhaps it is simply instinct not purpose, and purpose is abstract and thus relative.

You don't have to have religion to survive. It just enhances your life.

So ya religion/philosophy isn't necessary, but it makes life much much better.

[cstrikehero]

you know.. i love how everyone (non_religious) is saying theres no way to prove there is a God, yet all they are using to prove hes fake is sayings from PEOPLE who dont believe.. and using this as fact!!! I havnt seen anything yet that PROVES there isnt a God, and even if i did (which i wont) i wouldn't deny my Christianity Anyway.

the problem is you guys have NO ACTUAL REAL EVIDENCE of the lack of a God just a bunch of sayings and philosophies..

Darwin, he started evolution right, well before he died, he denied his theory, saying it was made up and .. hmm guess what.. BECAME A CHRISTIAN!!!!.. the only reason any of the ideas you have are in exsitance is because people felt trapped by guilt of sin, and wanted to break free of the guilt, which was put there by God. So they say there is no God, thinking if there is no God, there will be no guilt..

Truth is, you will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS feel somethin missing inside of you without christ..

[a2thae]

you know.. i love how everyone (non_religious) is saying theres no way to prove there is a God, yet all they are using to prove hes fake is sayings from PEOPLE who dont believe.. and using this as fact!!! I havnt seen anything yet that PROVES there isnt a God, and even if i did (which i wont) i wouldn't deny my Christianity Anyway.

the problem is you guys have NO ACTUAL REAL EVIDENCE of the lack of a God just a bunch of sayings and philosophies..

Darwin, he started evolution right, well before he died, he denied his theory, saying it was made up and .. hmm guess what.. BECAME A CHRISTIAN!!!!.. the only reason any of the ideas you have are in exsitance is because people felt trapped by guilt of sin, and wanted to break free of the guilt, which was put there by God. So they say there is no God, thinking if there is no God, there will be no guilt..

Truth is, you will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS feel somethin missing inside of you without christ..

You're full of shit.

You have never seen any actual proof that there IS a god either, and that's what I was getting at. Darwin did deny his theory, but his theory has scientific evidence to back it up. This is why it is taught in school.

You don't miss shit without christ. The only reason you would need christ is to fall back on your faith...well if you don't got shit to fall back on, it only makes you stronger.

I can also argue that YOU will "ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS" feel the bullshit inside of you because subconsciously you want god to exist, but you also know it is extre***y unlikely.

::EDIT:: did you even read what I pasted into the quote with epicurus?

If you did, it's obvious you can't dispute it.

[crazyassmetalhead]

haha yea okay...

but it comes down to there being no way to prove or disprove god.

and even if there was a god, it doesn't prove that your god is the correct one, nor your religion the correct one.....



as for jesus, he's just some dude who mows my lawn

[cstrikehero]

you know what, go to hell, ive tried, and youll probly wish youd listened to me when satans raping you in hell

believe me. i wish you would try to listen instead of having a stone cold heart.. but w/e

[a2thae]

you know what, go to hell, ive tried, and youll probly wish youd listened to me when satans raping you in hell

believe me. i wish you would try to listen instead of having a stone cold heart.. but w/e

Hahaha, it's because you aren't able to dispute epicurus.

Fuck off, I practically already know satan. I've dated his great-great-great granddaughter, -can't- be worse than her.

I don't have a cold heart, I just use logic. By the way, according to other religions we are all going to hell, and satan will be raping you, and you'd wish you hadn't spent your life being a dumbshit. Regrets will kick in, and you'll realize how much of a fucking idiot you are/were in life.

also, go die.

[crazyassmetalhead]

satans a loser and he's my bitch

[cstrikehero]

ok say what you want.. ive tried.. and yes.. being closed minded to Christ is called being cold hearted or having a hardened heart.. look up exodus if u dare.. chapter 20 yes i can debate its just pointless to argue with people who want to go to hell..

AC/DC highway to hell is not an accurate source for saying that hell will be a party with your friends...

it wont be a party.. if you want a "thrill" read al of revelation. if u read and understand that, you skin would crawl.. maybe since you know where your going, you should read up on it..

[a2thae]

Are you really that much of an imbecile?

I'm atheist dipshit. I'm not going anywhere when I die.

Though I used to be agnostic, because I didn't give a fuck if "god" existed or not(still don't).

::EDIT::and yes.. being closed minded to Christ is called being cold hearted or having a hardened heart..

I rest my case.

[crazyassmetalhead]

fuck i just remembered it's "the devil is a loser and he's ma bitch".... been a while since i heard that song

[freetibet]

hard headed atheists vs hard headed christians...

this debate is going nowhere fast haha

[a2thae]

eh, he conceded by refusing to continue. I guess "hard-headed atheists" win for the moment.

[freetibet]

till the next bible basher comes that is...

[DoG MikkyW]

Freetibet, a2thae was saying that the non-believers won. Anyways, to the idiot who mentioned carbon-dating as the only way to judge evolution, that's bull. There has been multiple experiments that prove that evolution exists, just in the past 400 years. Now, the earth has been scientifically proven, (Through half-lifes of certain isotopes of uranium), to be 4.3 billion years old, i believe. (either that or 4.6-7). The sun has been scientifically proven to be at least 6 billion years old. Now, that's a bit of a difference. Not just a few "days".

[Nebuchadnezzar]

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=JPAVAAAAYAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=A+Psychological+Study+of+Religion%3B+Its+Origin ,+Function++and+Future&ots=N9Uk5ONEvH&sig=UWGz_vKatOzOBfZtT1pl8ff4iLc#PPP1,M1

Happy reading!

Especially you, tibet

[crazyassmetalhead]

till the next bible basher comes that is...



gives new meaning to the phrase, live version is better visually but it's way harder to understand the vocals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lifrWcPIqHQ




i should post shit like this when people start quoting the bible as fact and such

[freetibet]

I don't think you can really say anyone 'won' since the debate was inconclusive. All that seems to be happening here is the atheists and fundamentalists are saying the other believes in nonsense.


Happy reading!

Especially you, tibet

Well that wasn't very nice...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

In all fairness, you are currently the primary defender of your position. I thought it would interest you.

[DoG MikkyW]

Generally, christians shun most things that they think might disprove their religions.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

S'truth...I don't expect anyone to read that whole thing, but I'd be surprised if he made it through chapter one...

[freetibet]

I just scanned over it real fast.

I stopped after seeing something about 'christian mystics' or some bullshit that made religious people sound all superstitious.

You can't really prove or disprove religion itself with science. You can disprove denominations, but really all that does is do everyone a favor by getting rid of another 'ism'

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Y'know, that's why I used to be agnostic. I wasn't going to make a judgment until I had some further evidence, like god saying something. A few months ago, I realized that man's psychological potential for creating a god so far outweighed the likelihood of a supreme being that it wasn't practical to maintain such an undefined position.

[Deetinator]

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/271,2228030/Are-Evolution-and-Creation-a-contradiction.html

If anyone legitimately cares, take a read, and see my motivation. The bible has been more right to me than man's wavering opinion. It's not that long, just an article by a Jewish Rabbi.

And if anyone wants to offer a specific "proof" of evolution, please do so instead of saying "It's so obvious, you must be retarded, scientists proved it." Dog made an attempt at least with the radioactive decay thing. But Dog, can you give a specific example, such as where were these rocks found, and what not?

And in response to Epicurus:
God is willing and able, but chooses not to because he subjects Himself to rules, one of them being man has free will to choose. If you want to get into it, do it at askmoses.com. They've got a live person that will talk to you about free will. Then come back with what they said. Make sure you save the conversation, or have a transcript sent to your email.

[AlbertWesker]

Religion sucks, period.

[cstrikehero]

Generally, christians shun most things that they think might disprove their religions.

now thats not true. i havent seen anything to disprove my beliefs yet in theis who thread... just a bunch or theries and supposed logic..

watch this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8463129851563631666&hl=en

[cstrikehero]

whats this.. a whole hour and no responses? maybe its because its soooo full of stuff to prove Christianity and disprove anything else...

[freetibet]

Y'know, that's why I used to be agnostic. I wasn't going to make a judgment until I had some further evidence, like god saying something. A few months ago, I realized that man's psychological potential for creating a god so far outweighed the likelihood of a supreme being that it wasn't practical to maintain such an undefined position.

Well what if so many people believing in god, makes god exist?

Religion sucks, period.

no, bigotry and intolerance sucks, religion/philosophy sets you free.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The point I was making was that since humans have a high psychological potentiality for creating a god, the likelihood of this occurring is greater than that of a supreme being who defies the laws of physics.

Also, it is of interest to me that such a high percentage of atheists reside in rich, developed countries. Maybe the difference between Australians/Americans/Canadians etc and Columbians is that us decadent people have access to more information... What does that say to you? Do we know something they don't?

[cstrikehero]

did either of you watch the movie?

[cstrikehero]

watch the FREKING MOVIE!!! all of you.. i know its freaking 2 hrs long but watch it anyway. its not like you have anything better to do besides sitting on you ass all day!!

[Cuddles]

now thats not true. i havent seen anything to disprove my beliefs yet in theis who thread... just a bunch or theries and supposed logic..

watch this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8463129851563631666&hl=en

guy's an asshole, a bigot, and should never have been a school teacher. his children are fucking ugly, also....and im not sitting through two hours of that fucking idiot.

[cstrikehero]

mabe you should.. ur just scared of being proved wrong...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Uh oh! He CHALLENGED YOU! ZOMG he's so scary in person! I am completely bowled over by his deductive wit and reasoning! He really is a creative genius of argument, I must bow down and wash his feet! Who would have ever thought a statement could be so wise!?

Howbout you do something useful for a change: PARAPHRASE THE FUCKING VIDEO, MAYBE!? You wanna summarize the main points, hmm? Or do you just wanna let preacher-man fight for you?

[Deetinator]

guy's an asshole, a bigot, and should never have been a school teacher. his children are fucking ugly, also....and im not sitting through two hours of that fucking idiot.

Way to not deal with any of the arguments. You really showed him. He offers an idea, and you don't even attempt to look at it. Either that or you can't figure out a way around the arguments.

Neb, you're looking like an idiot right now, and you do look scared. C'mon, if its so obvious then just start tearing apart his arguments! Let the preacher man fight for him? Who cares if he's fighting for him, there on the same side, and if you can't beat preacher-man, then your argument fails.

And Dog, you still haven't responded to my earlier post, if you're still here.

everything is pre destined to happen as it would have happened....aliens created us, just looking at our genetic code, and the complexity of the design, such as fingernails. intelligent design, intelligent thought, or just existence as part of some randomized multiversal event.

You say this and then say religion has no merit? C'mon! Don't blind yourself! Search for the truth, and you'll find it! And that goes for all of you!

[Cuddles]

Way to not deal with any of the arguments. You really showed him. He offers an idea, and you don't even attempt to look at it. Either that or you can't figure out a way around the arguments.

Neb, you're looking like an idiot right now, and you do look scared. C'mon, if its so obvious then just start tearing apart his arguments! Let the preacher man fight for him? Who cares if he's fighting for him, there on the same side, and if you can't beat preacher-man, then your argument fails.
You say this and then say religion has no merit? C'mon! Don't blind yourself! Search for the truth, and you'll find it! And that goes for all of you!

point one: i refuse to watch two hours of some idiot preaching to me, ive done it before and it offers me nothing worthwhile. if you wish to argue, i will not argue with a video. if i wished to argue with the person in the video, i would email him, and argue with him. i am on here, arguing with you. argue for yourself. THAT is why im not watching the video, not because i cant come up with counterpoints for any of it, but because if you want to use something in an argument, be prepared to word it in your OWN way, not just cite it as a resource and assume the person you're arguing with is going to watch it. that's just bullshit, and you're failing at arguing with me even more by trying it than you were by actually arguing with me.

and jesus fucking christ, you're an idiot. mass (if you havent realized it's him) was BEING fucking SARCASTIC, AND AN ASSHOLE. you should KNOW by now that he doesnt believe any of the shit he says. he's being an ass to spite you.

[Deetinator]

He wasn't spiting me, I wasn't on there, but I appreciate the explanation.

OK then, prove it to me. Why do you believe evolution? The burden of proof remains on you.

[Cuddles]

He wasn't spiting me, I wasn't on there, but I appreciate the explanation.

OK then, prove it to me. Why do you believe evolution? The burden of proof remains on you.

this thread is to debate religion, not science. if you want to debate evolution, im very sure there's a thread for that.

as well, he WAS spiting everyone who has posted on this thread, so, being that you had, retroactively, he was spiting you.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Neb, you're looking like an idiot right now, and you do look scared. C'mon, if its so obvious then just start tearing apart his arguments! Let the preacher man fight for him? Who cares if he's fighting for him, there on the same side, and if you can't beat preacher-man, then your argument fails.

UH OH, I'm really scared now. I am legitimately afraid that a centuries-old debate is going to end because of something one of YOU posts..... I'm so frightened that my side is going to lose despite the perpetual mental gridlock of the world's smartest minds ever since science came to the fore.

We both know that this argument will never end; I won't concede to you, I find your position unsubstantiated, and you will not concede for the same reason. The root cause is our different views of truth and the world: That's not going to change. I'll admit that I did not watch the video. Know why? I'm studying for my midterm exams and I don't have fucking two hours to spare. Do me a favor, huh? summarize the argument. THEN I'll tear it down.

[freetibet]

The debate will never end unless either God somehow formed itself into a visible being and appeared to each and every non-believer, or atheists decided to kill all believers of anything spiritual. Oh, and the atheists would have to kill anyone who started believing in the spiritual after the first massacre.

Even then, I'm not sure that would end the debates

[Cuddles]

The debate will never end unless either God somehow formed itself into a visible being and appeared to each and every non-believer, or atheists decided to kill all believers of anything spiritual. Oh, and the atheists would have to kill anyone who started believing in the spiritual after the first massacre.

Even then, I'm not sure that would end the debates

muslims are allowed by the q'ran to deny their faith if doing so is the only way to save their own life.....

[crazyassmetalhead]

(this fit better somewhere else but the fucking website logged me out while i was typing so fuck it, it'll just go here)


man created god, god did not create man.

the bible, the quran, the tora......all religious texts were written by man

if any of it was divinely written through man by god then why would there be endless interpretations and countless reedits and translations.


the funniest thing about this thread is that it proves one fundemental thing about relgion, christianity in particular. you can't argue with someone who has faith, because faith is blind. trying to change the mind of someone who is faithful will make them feel like they are being persecuted, where they then resort to ignorance to prove their point and in their own minds are like martyrs to their faith. or worse, they actually take their faith further and try to convert you.....

another funny thing is if you argue against religion in general, question the existence of god, etc then you are considered atheiest

i'm not an atheist, atheists are just as ignorant in their absolute belief in no god as religious people are convinced in their beliefs

i don't have beliefs, i have ideas which can be changed and amended as proof and cause deems it nessesary (so far haven't seen any)

[cstrikehero]

Evolution is NOT SCIENCE!! evolutionist believe that all the matter in the universe got together in a swirling mass and bang it blew up, creating a universe.. do you know that universe is Greek for single spoken sentence?

"...And God said, let there be..." is a single spoken sentence.

and if all the matter in the universe was spinning together in a tinny dot bllions of years ago IN THE SAME DIRECTION, then by the law of conservation of angular momentum, all the mass would be spinning in one direction off the swirling big mass. explain why some planets spin opposite?

Also: mass has to come from somewhere it dosent just become

1st law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. only changed.

How did the "dirt" get there to produce a big bang?

so i believe in the beginning God,
and you believe in the beginning Dirt.

Dont tell me that one is science and one is religious. no, they are both religious.
Evolution is NOT science. the only reason its in science books is because the "scientists" if you will haven't thought up another stupid theory yet.

[a2thae]

Cstrike you are seriously a fucking idiot.

[cstrikehero]

I may be the king of Idiots But my kingdom is vast and my subjects are wide... (you would be a subject by the way)

have you even thought to even trying to make any sense out of what im saying, or are you just straight up disagreeing without any thought whatsoever...

[crazyassmetalhead]

it's very hard to make sense outta nonsense.....

[a2thae]

You aren't qualified enough to proclaim that evolution isn't science. You can have your opinion, but until you become a scientist; keep your stupidity to yourself.

I would also like to note you can have the opinion chemistry isn't science...doesn't mean it's correct.

Dipshit.

Evolution is science until you fully disprove it. It has nothing to do with religion.

Keep this shit on topic, argue in the other thread I guess.

[crazyassmetalhead]

yes the new science debate thread, that should be fun too

[cstrikehero]

i did disprove it dimwit...there is no possible way it could have ever happened..

[crazyassmetalhead]

wow you disproved evolution?

amazing.


wait, where, how and with what?

and please don't say the bible....

[a2thae]

You're full of shit. Yes there is obviously a way it could've happened though the conditions were unlikely, eternity is a long time, and shit is bound to happen sooner or later.

Did you even pass middle school?

[freetibet]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419/

I don't think bacteria would evolve into fish over any space of time...

[Abu Shuja'ah]

I believe in Christ...

and i as far as I know there is no evidence that can be shown to the world to prove or disprove God.

It is possible to prove on a personal level though

Disproving Christianity in three questions:
1) Who gave Emperor Constantine permission to edit, delete and create new Gospels to be assembled into the book that is the Bible today? No Scripture speaks about a Prophet or emperor that was supposed to do this, heck not even Jesus said so.......so why should I believe in the Bible as the book of God?

2) Who said Jesus was the Son of God? The Bible plagiarizes the religion of PAUL who worshiped the SUN of GOD, Mithra. Google it.

3) Christianity supports slavery, why? For 400 years, millions of african, indian slaves where taken forcibly from there home lands to colonize in the name of Christ and not ONE christian stood up against it! It's only when those of other faiths and those with humanity in there hearts fought and rebelled against it you all HAD to 'change your minds'.

[cstrikehero]

1st:
During the slavery days, EVERYONE was a "christian" whether they acted like it or not, most used it as an exuse to get to america in my opinion. And Yes, Christians did not approve, but we do impose on others lifestyles.. i spread the gospel, and you choose what you want to do..

2nd:
whoever wrote that bullcrap about mithra, is feeding you a load of crap and you took it hook line and sinker..

3rd:
No one gave the emperor permision to edit the bible.. and he didnt.. i dont know where all you guys get this info from but its wrong.. do u honestly think that people are stupid enough to only have one copy of the original bible?... i dont think so..

[Deetinator]

Disproving Christianity in three questions:
1) Who gave Emperor Constantine permission to edit, delete and create new Gospels to be assembled into the book that is the Bible today? No Scripture speaks about a Prophet or emperor that was supposed to do this, heck not even Jesus said so.......so why should I believe in the Bible as the book of God?

2) Who said Jesus was the Son of God? The Bible plagiarizes the religion of PAUL who worshiped the SUN of GOD, Mithra. Google it.

3) Christianity supports slavery, why? For 400 years, millions of african, indian slaves where taken forcibly from there home lands to colonize in the name of Christ and not ONE christian stood up against it! It's only when those of other faiths and those with humanity in there hearts fought and rebelled against it you all HAD to 'change your minds'.

1. He didn't edit crap.

2. Bull. You have no evidence to support this, just the Zeitgeist video, which has ABSOLUTELY NO FACTUAL SUPPORT.

3. Plenty of people stood up. Ever heard of John Newton? He became a Christian, and left the slave trade a few years later. What he did after led to the abolishment of slavery in England. The work of God is evident here, you just don't want to see it.

And to everyone else who doesn't want to acknowledge any of Cstrike's arguments, you lose. Just google the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum, its legit. If you don't have time to debate, then why are you here?

[Abu Shuja'ah]

1st:
During the slavery days, EVERYONE was a "christian" whether they acted like it or not, most used it as an exuse to get to america in my opinion. And Yes, Christians did not approve, but we do impose on others lifestyles.. i spread the gospel, and you choose what you want to do..

2nd:
whoever wrote that bullcrap about mithra, is feeding you a load of crap and you took it hook line and sinker..

3rd:
No one gave the emperor permision to edit the bible.. and he didnt.. i dont know where all you guys get this info from but its wrong.. do u honestly think that people are stupid enough to only have one copy of the original bible?... i dont think so..

1) No, slaves were forcibly converted to Christianity so that they shall be saved by the church. Priests and pastors saw it fit to own slaves to build churches.

2) Mithra is a load of bullcrap? So why do the religious scriptures about Mithra look exactly like those of Jesus. Let's see, similarities, born on 25th of December, had a virgin mother, died and was resurrected after three days, is the Sun of God.......and the list goes on.

3) Yes, no one gave him permission to edit the bible, but documented evidence by the Romans clearly state that he DID edit and create/ rewrite Gospels for the Bible. It is a historical fact.

I have one question for you. Who was Jesus? Was Jesus just a man. Was Jesus a man but with God inside? Was Jesus God? Because every single Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Jehova's Witness Christian can't make up their minds.

If Jesus was a man, then why worship him as God?
If Jesus had God inside of him, then why was he controlled by a human body? Doesn't that then mean that his creation became greater than he is?
If Jesus God, then why did God die?

Christianity = DOGMA

[Abu Shuja'ah]

oh... no shit? thats old news. although i'm quit positive paul who was previously known as saul <---spelling? wasn't a sun worshipper after he became paul why? because he was the guy if you remember who was the christian killer at first serving christians to the lions and prison. he also when to prison for jesus got shipwrecked, bit by a snake, family died and finally in the end his last letter to timothy he states he was in prison (by that time christianity was illegal) so the assumption is he was executed before nero's death., . christianity isn't as stupid as you think. it's based on faith and a strong need to beleive. so explanations have been prepared or have always existed as a truth. the editing of the bible and anything done to the major "core elements" of the bible are supposedly inspired, so your saying a god of infinite power couldn't keep something sacred? what about the dome of the rock... or the prayer place muhammed had made? it's changed over time. does it lose it's value?

now the argument is the koran never changes right? thats why it's gods miracle.

1. allah is not god. he is allah the moon god, the god of abrahams father, who was a preist.

2.ishmael was banished from the land of god.
3.issiac kicks ass
4.jew and muslims have been fighting over this for ages. but the truth is allah is not god.

why would i want to beleive a prophet who was illiterate,mathematically challenged (see his explanation on how to divide goods between a family and the deceased's wife) not to mention the guy was a pedo, (reference nine year old wife) and his culture sucks, preaching superiority, discrimination and a downright ultimadum, bow to us or die.

of course i think GOD, is a dumb concept but i enjoy arguing you out of your dumbass religion.

1) How can a rock lose it's value? It's a rock, it has no value. The mosque and the Dome of the Rock are two significantly different things, educate yourself on the issue before you speak.

2) Allah(swt) is a moon God? I don't see that anywhere in Al Quran or Al Sunnah, and I've never heard of that before.....

3) The issue of Ishmael and Isaac, is one for a face to face, recorded, with an audience debate, with an educated person, which by what you have written detracts you from the situation.

4) Jews and Muslims fight because of the oppression of Muslims and nothing else.

5) Yes he was completely illiterate, but everyone says he copied from the Bible, how can an illiterate man plagiarize? Mathematically challenged? Where......and from what you have said, it makes no sense, the family gets more because they HAVE TO PROVIDE FOR THE WIFE, the money is there for them to provide for the wife not for them to spend of their own will. Genius.

4) Pedo? He married a girl. He could not have had sex with her until she reached the age of womanhood (puberty), why is that so hard to understand? Nations have laws of age of consensual sex ranging from 13-17. Puberty and age differ from person to person, thus your point is insignificant.

As well as their was wisdom behind this marriage, she is the most highly respected person when it comes to knowledge of the Prophet(saw), she recorded the most Hadiths (actions and sayings of him). How can you call him a sexual predator when the woman he was married to, never insulted nor cursed him, spoke against him or told of any wrong doings to her by him.

5) Bow to who and die? How is it racial, unlike Christianity we don't have slaves we freed them. Unlike Jesus who was sent for the Children of Israel and not for the Gentiles or Samaritans, Muhammad (saw) was sent for the WORLD. How are we racial? Ever heard of the Mormon Church, that's a racial cult, so again your argument is insignificant.

****************
Yes what you said is true, Christians are dumb for celebrating their God's bday on the wrong day, and who says Constantine was to assemble the Bible, which Prophet said so? Did Jesus said so? Anyone can write a book of wisdom.....but would you call that the word of God? Heck in the Bible you got two different Gospels, stating Jesus was from two different lineages, and if these men were inspired by God, does that mean God lied to them?

How did you break me down? You just admitted that Christianity is Paganism disguised and that your holidays are just cover ups for Pagan celebrations, something which Islam has always said.......So in essence you just disproved your religion and by extension you actually are a Pagan as all Christians are. I guess the Holy Spirit had to inspire Constantine to lie to all of mankind in hopes of Salvation when really, what you preached against you practise, just got to change the name!

And is using obscene language the way a TRUE Christian acts?
and you may be a bookworm but I am a Theologian, I study all faiths, and question all faiths, I seek not to disprove a man's faith in God, but man's faith in lies, which you just proved yourself.

[Abu Shuja'ah]

1.your arguing factions and denominations. im arguing historical proof. a man named jesus historically died on a cross, paul was a recorded historical figure. and his plights where HISTORICALLY recorded.

2. no the wife subject goes something like this "and the prophet muhammed (PBUH) declared if a wife should lose her husband the mother should get 1/3 the sibling 3/5ths and the wife 1/3" or some equivalent i remember reading it straight out of the koran thinking WTF.

3.dude was a bum nothing more

4. yes he was a pedo. by our standards.

5. anyone who is not a muslim is an infidel it is stated as such.

6.god gave that land to the jews. point period. remember whole 40 yrs in the desert?

7.moron i know the sacred mousque wich faces the crater mount and blah blah fucking blah it's 833-900 km from where muhhamed had blah fucking blah straight line... face the mosque... yea i know dipshit and the dome of the rock is a fucking "sacred meoteorite" that literally dictates how blah blah muslims.. other shit i dont care... oh and check this? we don't have slaves. i never did. i wouldn't want a slave because i don't like farming. guess what thousands of yrs ago your people walked around half naked ! oh no! cavemen! your throwing in jibes to deter the attention that historically, and scientifically and logically your faith is stupid <--- lovely word really.


i know high ups.. i can assure you muslims got it all mixed up hardcore.

It is not proved Jesus died on a cross. Do you have the cross? Do you even have the body? No....because Jesus ascended into heaven. Yes Paul is a historical figure, he was a killer of Christians and a preacher of the Religion of Mithra.

1) Can you not read? I said above that the siblings get that amount to provide for the mother and the widow. Geez, try reading a bit before you speak.

2) A Bum? His Uncle was one of the richest men in Makkah, his wife was a successful merchant. How is that a bum? Must be by your standards, pity, envy is a awful thing.

3) A pedo? Shame the wife and wives didn't say that in their documented evidence of his life and way he led his life.

4) and anyone who does not accept Jesus as their saviour is banished to Hell, so whats your point?

5) God gave that land to the Jews. Yes he did, then they killed his Prophets, changed his word and screwed religion, then Muslims became the chosen people.

6) Your last paragraph makes no sense. The Dome of the Rock, is a rock, the Holy Qibla is just a black rock in the desert, it can't help us nor cure us nor do we pray to it for anything.

We pray in it's direction to show unity and togetherness amongst Muslims.

Your arguments are invalid for such a bookworm.

[Abu Shuja'ah]

ok with someone who obviously can't read you just validated everything i said. the dome of the rock is a rock. 1. oh they don't pray to it? how come i see like 5000 of you fucks praying to it everyday?) i know the holy mosque is something else. and yes i don't agree with either religion their both binary with the same core principal and era of creation (maybe not written kuran is >500- i think) but in beleifs yes same ti***ine.

"God gave that land to the Jews. Yes he did, then they killed his Prophets, changed his word and screwed religion, then Muslims became the chosen people."
1 gave to jews, 2. yes he did 3. god said he would rebuild his temple and his people should flourish again. 4.revelation speaks of the jews returning to the holy land on the wings of eagles, jerimiah? issiah? old testament fuckers! boocha so no new testament debauchery. were talking levitical law. holy shit the jews... are going home en mass in planes... they have charities for it! their rebuilding the temple peices. they are comming to smite you. or so they beleive... they know what their doing. arent you waiting for the nine yr old to top out of the well in iraq the mahdi and save you all and muhammed to sit at his right hand? and he will teach the prophet the ways of enlightenment or am i mistaken? isn't that why iran wants WMD's???!?!?! yea i know kid, i have privledged intel stating that verbatum. irans president is a nutjob.

1) Ok I give up, you cannot read, did I not just explain that we pray towards and not TO it? A rock is not God, its just a rock, that we pray to in respect of togetherness and unity.

2) Now you get it, you just said it, the only reason the Jews fight the Muslims is so that they can regain the Temple Mound, Destroy Masjid Al Aqsa and rebuild their temple. Which is not going to happen since 1.6 Billion + Muslims will fight for Aqsa.

3) 9 year old what to what? You make no sense when you speak, it just shows your limited knowledge. Plus according to your scriptures the Jews are better than you.....

Imam Mahdi is a man that shall come and free the Muslims of oppression, Jesus shall accompany him.

4) Basically everything that comes out of your mouth is a mistake. Jesus would be proud of you, love the colorful words you use. No doubt Jesus loves the way you invite people to Christianity and show them how much Jesus loves us all.



5) I don't know why Iran wants WMD's, just like Iraq.....pshhtttt, no one has or is going to use WMD's beside Israel and America is or when any of them have to fight a war.

[Cuddles]

1) No, slaves were forcibly converted to Christianity so that they shall be saved by the church. Priests and pastors saw it fit to own slaves to build churches.

2) Mithra is a load of bullcrap? So why do the religious scriptures about Mithra look exactly like those of Jesus. Let's see, similarities, born on 25th of December, had a virgin mother, died and was resurrected after three days, is the Sun of God.......and the list goes on.

3) Yes, no one gave him permission to edit the bible, but documented evidence by the Romans clearly state that he DID edit and create/ rewrite Gospels for the Bible. It is a historical fact.

I have one question for you. Who was Jesus? Was Jesus just a man. Was Jesus a man but with God inside? Was Jesus God? Because every single Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Jehova's Witness Christian can't make up their minds.

If Jesus was a man, then why worship him as God?
If Jesus had God inside of him, then why was he controlled by a human body? Doesn't that then mean that his creation became greater than he is?
If Jesus God, then why did God die?

Christianity = DOGMA

im only going to comment on number 2, the rest is behind what's current in the thread, so im not gonna

jesus was not born on december 25th, i make a point of telling people that....the fact that christmas is on december 25th is solely to make one "super" holiday combining many faiths, to get more converts...it includes the winter solstice, mithras' birth, hannukah, and many others.....jesus was actually supposed to be born on easter, although, because of some changes made surrounding christmas in the 19th and 20th century, (when christmas became a christian holiday--for a long while, it was just a holiday celebrated by the poor of england, and every church refused to allow mass on that day, and did not condone it) many got confused and believed him to be born on that day.......


take a look into the many faces santa clause has had in the past, you'll find reference of him in many faiths, as well...just under different names.....there's a debate in russia that just came up this past few years regarding celebrating the traditional russian version, ded moroz.....boris gryslov called the american santa an illegal immigrant.....

pic of the russian version: http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dedputin.jpg

and yes, that is vladimir putin looking terrified of the guy....

edit: quit lying to everyone, mass, you're not a fucking christian, it's not fair to lie to them...and also, no one at all is going to use wmd's, there was a big convention thing that discussed the threat of nuclear winter if just a few nuclear bombs were used, which means that in any large enough war that any major power would need them, it would be to the benefit of neither party to attempt to use them.......i believe the concept is still called Mutually Assured Destruction......

[Abu Shuja'ah]

i don't talk to the phone i talk to the person. are you stupid? do you talk on the phone? at the phone... not TO THE ACTUAL ROCK... but it's a holy place thats my point.

It's a Holy Place because of many, many, many things. Not because it can do anything for us.

and you think for the Iranian president? How would you know what he thinks? Alot of nations don't like Israel.....yet again your point is invalid.

Allahu Alam.

[freetibet]

Disproving Christianity in three questions:
1) Who gave Emperor Constantine permission to edit, delete and create new Gospels to be assembled into the book that is the Bible today? No Scripture speaks about a Prophet or emperor that was supposed to do this, heck not even Jesus said so.......so why should I believe in the Bible as the book of God?

Constantine didn't edit the bible, he just compiled the works of different apostles and such. I'll admit though that there are likely important works that were omitted. Arianism was the dominant christian denomination in Egypt at the time, and Constantine probably left out any parts that would support Arianism so he could unite all Christians under trinitarianism.


2) Who said Jesus was the Son of God? The Bible plagiarizes the religion of PAUL who worshiped the SUN of GOD, Mithra. Google it.

I'm aware of this. I believe in Christ, but not the trinity. Most Christians believe Christ is either part of the trinity, or a God himself. I believe he was the second Adam.

The whole mithra god things sounds a bit silly to me though...

3) Christianity supports slavery, why? For 400 years, millions of african, indian slaves where taken forcibly from there home lands to colonize in the name of Christ and not ONE christian stood up against it! It's only when those of other faiths and those with humanity in there hearts fought and rebelled against it you all HAD to 'change your minds'.

Just because the Christians were corrupted doesn't mean Christ was corrupt. Muslims had slaves too.

[cstrikehero]

Saul murdered christians much like hitler and jews until an angel of God intervened, he converted christian and he preached he gospel... he may have worshiped w/e god that was before he became a Christian...

Israel may be destroyed or become part of another nation for a short time, but they WILL come out on top.. They are Gods people whether they want to be or not. (The nation not necessarily the people)

[Abu Shuja'ah]

Muslims had slaves in the beginning and in less than a handful of years this was banished. Yours took 400 years.

By no means was Prophet Isa (as) corrupt.

Actually proof that he did edit the Bible was the changing of the death of Jesus, in several successive Gospels. From a Paupers death with no women in tomb or anointment, to the full works.

It's not my aim to destroy faith in God, just faith in which lies against God is made. I agree with you the trinity does not exist, yet it is part of the Bible, in some way or the other, I don't know about you but that does sound like picking and choosing beliefs, unless your Bible has no verse referring to the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

The fact is, no one knows who wrote the Gospels, where they were from and if they were reliable.

Everyone knows which man the Quran was revealed to and everyone knows at which town and incident they were revealed for.

Like the Christian King of Abyssinia once said, "My religion (Christianity) and yours (Islam) are like these two streaks of light, from the same source but only just separated at the end."

For CS: According to my faith and the events which have passed, Israel will win a few times again, but in the long run Muslims will win the battle. btw, if Jews are God's chosen people, and they are better than all of us, why won't you become a Jew?

[Deetinator]

Paul was NEVER a worshipper of Mithra or anyone but God. He was hardcore Jewish before hand, which is why he wanted to get rid of Christians. Then Jesus appeared to him.

Mohammed at least sinned four times. He repented that many times. What about the verse in the Quran which states that Jesus was of noble birth, sinless, and was actually in heaven before he came to earth?

Also, doesn't the Quran also say that Torah and the rest of the Bible are holy books? Yet you say they've been corrupted. So I guess your book is wrong. The dead sea scrolls proved that the old testament writings have not been corrupted.

If you actually believe the Zeitgeist movie you are retarded. There is NO primary source to back up any of their claims. Just because sun and son sound the same in English doesn't mean they are the same in every other language, dumbass.

[freetibet]

Muslims had slaves in the beginning and in less than a handful of years this was banished. Yours took 400 years.

Muslims did have slaves though. You can't say Christians are any less than Muslims over slavery, because both groups had slaves at one point. Just because Christians did it for longer doesn't mean it was ok that the Muslims did.

By no means was Prophet Isa (as) corrupt.

Are we calling him Isa now? I guess it doesn't matter so long as we both know what we're talking about...

Actually proof that he did edit the Bible was the changing of the death of Jesus, in several successive Gospels. From a Paupers death with no women in tomb or anointment, to the full works.

I'm undecided on this... He might have died and been resurrected like the Bible said, he might now have. Point is, his guidance can lead us to a better life. That is the only point I really care about.

It's not my aim to destroy faith in God, just faith in which lies against God is made. I agree with you the trinity does not exist, yet it is part of the Bible, in some way or the other, I don't know about you but that does sound like picking and choosing beliefs, unless your Bible has no verse referring to the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

I don't think the bible says anything to support the trinity... It can be interpreted to mean certain things, but I think the Bible has far more evidence of there being 1 God, and not a trinitarian God either.

The fact is, no one knows who wrote the Gospels, where they were from and if they were reliable.

Everyone knows which man the Quran was revealed to and everyone knows at which town and incident they were revealed for.

I think we know just as much about who wrote the Gospels, as we do about the Quran. One problem I have with Islam is that it believes the Quran is absolutely pure, that there is no chance for error. Christians at least acknowledge that there is a chance of error and that we should do our best to find Christ's original words, and the meaning of those words.


Like the Christian King of Abyssinia once said, "My religion (Christianity) and yours (Islam) are like these two streaks of light, from the same source but only just separated at the end."

This is true, we should do our best to focus on the similarities of our beliefs, not the differences. In the end we worship the same God and both want to do what is best for mankind.

For CS: According to my faith and the events which have passed, Israel will win a few times again, but in the long run Muslims will win the battle.

Win? All that will happen from the fighting in Israel is thousands, maybe millions, will die. It doesn't matter who 'wins' because in the end your just fighting over something that need not be fought over. The Israeli government isn't preventing anyone from going on the hajj or pilgrims from visiting the Dome of the Rock. If you could just stop shooting at each other long enough to realize the foolishness of this bloodshed, you would stop.

[Abu Shuja'ah]

Muhammad (saw) was sinless.

It is a fact Paul was a worshipper of Mithra.

The Quran states, that a Muslim must believe in the Torah, Psalms and the Bible in their original form. It also states that Jews were God's chosen people and why they are not. It explains why those three books are not the word of God and why this is the final word of God to mankind. So yet again, if you do not know of my religion, do not speak on behalf of it, rather I know about yours so I can speak of it.

As for freetibet, Israel does stop people from praying at Masjid Al Aqsa. On Fridays Mosques are raided at time for the Jummah Prayer as well as flow to Masjid Al Aqsa is cut off whenever they see it fit.

Those living in the West Bank are not allowed to leave their refugee camps to attend prayers and when Israel locksdown the camps, no one can leave their homes or they would be shot on sight.

[freetibet]

So Israel is preventing muslims from worshipping?

wouldn't this have been mentioned at least once in all of the reports on the situation there?

I'm going to have to see evidence to support this before I can believe that...

[Deetinator]

Muhammad (saw) was sinless.
Then why did he have to repent? And why do you keep doing the parentheses.

It is a fact Paul was a worshipper of Mithra.
Fact? You'll have to back it up with evidence, of which you have none.

The Quran states, that a Muslim must believe in the Torah, Psalms and the Bible in their original form.
Well you obviously don't.

It also states that Jews were God's chosen people and why they are not. It explains why those three books are not the word of God and why this is the final word of God to mankind. So yet again, if you do not know of my religion, do not speak on behalf of it, rather I know about yours so I can speak of it.
Well then explain it, if the Quran does such a good job about it. As far as I know, Jews are God's chosen people. Now, that changed somewhat with the coming of the Messiah, but God still loves them, as he loves all people.

And you still have yet to respond to the fact that the Quran says Jesus was sinless. If someone was already in heaven, and said they knew how to get there, wouldn't you want to follow someone who's already been there?

[cstrikehero]

copied from website but still is true.. i just didnt want to type that much.. i have read all of it and i believe is acurate.. about the trinity..

Persons within the Godhead are Distinct

So far, we have identified that each of the three members of the Godhead are considered God. The crux of your question, however, deals with the idea that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons, but merely different "manifestations" that God reveals. However, with a careful reading of the Bible, we find that this doesn't hold.

In Matthew 4:16-17 we see that the Father speaks out of heaven when Jesus is baptized - a clear distinction. We also read in John 17:1 that Jesus prayed to the Father, and he carefully made a distinction between the two in saying "Father... glorify your Son, that the Son may glorify You." In fact, 1 John 2:1 tells us that Jesus is our Advocate with the Father. It doesn't make sense to equate Jesus and the Father as the same person, as these verses would be rendered nonsense.

John 14:20 again demonstrates the personhood of both the Son and Father when Jesus said "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." Since we realize that we are different persons than Jesus, this verse would argue that the Father is likewise distinct from the Son and not the same person.

Also we see the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. In John 14:26 Jesus again makes this explicit where He teaches "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things." Previous to this Jesus identified the Spirit as "another helper" (John 14:6). That word "another" is key. We also saw the Spirit in the Matthew 4 passage above descend on Jesus as a dove.

We know the Spirit is a person, because He has all the attributes of a person and not just "God's holy force" as some are want to believe. You cannot lie to an impersonal force, nor can you grieve one (see Eph 4:30). Thus the Bible is clear in presenting each of the three members of the trinity as separate persons - each distinct - but each fully God.

[freetibet]

christians vs muslims vs atheists

all incapable of seeing the truth in the other's thinking

typical...

at least now there are 3 groups though haha

[cstrikehero]

i am not incapeable of seeing truth when there is some present..

(to muslims)

but killing yourself for virgins is not at all right.. and you know whats funny? YOU ASSUME THEY ARE WOMEN!!!..
And i bet all of satans demons have never had sex either.. so you might just end up in hell with virgin demons.. sounds real fun

(evolutionists)

YOUR OWN THEORYS PROVE YOUR YOUR WRONG!!!.. SIMPLE LAWS OF PHYSICS!!!

[a2thae]

2nd: whoever wrote that bullcrap about mithra, is feeding you a load of crap and you took it hook line and sinker..


Whoever wrote that bullshit about christianity is feeding you a load of crap, and you took it hook, line, and sinker...

Cstrike you don't know shit about evolution, you are not a qualified voice of expression to claim it's invalidity.

[cstrikehero]

If you think i dont know shit then obviously you dont.. if you would acctually look fo the validity in what im saying you would see it because its right in front of your nose.. your all just too stubborn to look at it.. that movie i posted is 1 of about twelve that is FACTS proving (YES PROOF) of what i believe in.

[Abu Shuja'ah]

Then why did he have to repent? And why do you keep doing the parentheses.


Fact? You'll have to back it up with evidence, of which you have none.


Well you obviously don't.


Well then explain it, if the Quran does such a good job about it. As far as I know, Jews are God's chosen people. Now, that changed somewhat with the coming of the Messiah, but God still loves them, as he loves all people.

And you still have yet to respond to the fact that the Quran says Jesus was sinless. If someone was already in heaven, and said they knew how to get there, wouldn't you want to follow someone who's already been there?

1) He repented because to him, he could have done more than what he had already done. You see you call my Muhammad (saw) out on what you think are sins, when your Jesus supposedly died for the entire's world sins, so a comparison of sins puts your Jesus as the biggest sinner of all time.

2) I'll get your proof for you Insha Allah.

3) Actually each Muslim believes in the Bible, Psalms and Torah, however according to Islam, those books were corrupted, Constantine for the Bible, after King Solomon's death for the Torah........

4) I've already said that the Jews earned God's anger, by slaying his prophets and corrupting his word. By the way didn't the Jews, endorse the killing of Jesus.

5) Quote the Chapter and Verse so that I may clarify on the Jesus issue. Muhammad (saw) also went to heaven.....and Adam (as) was in heaven as well. You say that Jesus was a miracle birth which makes him unlike any man, agreed, but that does not give us reason to worship him, as Adam (as) was the first man and needed no birth, so does that mean we shall worship him too?

(to muslims)

but killing yourself for virgins is not at all right.. and you know whats funny? YOU ASSUME THEY ARE WOMEN!!!..
And i bet all of satans demons have never had sex either.. so you might just end up in hell with virgin demons.. sounds real fun


You know whats funny, you speak of which you know not. Islam is a deep religion and you use what is on the surface to persecute us, like a modern day Crusades.

Suicide - a person who has deep emotional, mental and or physical misgivings who sees no reason to live anymore.

Muslim - one who submits to the will of Allah (swt).

The greatest army in the world invades your nation and all you have are guns which can do nothing and if you can sacrifice yourself and destroy the enemy why not? This person has not given up on life but has seen a method to attack the enemy, would it be suicide if he fired at a checkpoint and then had 50 hellfire missiles at him?

I am not defending bombings, but just putting some reasoning here.

Actually we are told of the virgins, the number is what I am not certain off, but those women are unlike those of this earth and are very beautiful, however if the person is married, their wife will be more beautiful than those virgins.

You know for a Christian, you actually put down your faith by accusing others of things which you really have no knowledge of. Do you even understand atheists? Have you ever met and spoken with one?

>>>>>>>>>http://answering-christianity.org/aisha.htm<<<<<<<<<

[DoG MikkyW]

Also, you say there is no proof that constantine edited the bible and decided what stayed and what went?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_Constantine_remove_things_from_the_Bible

Also, many books were excluded from the bible that are just as historically accurate as the bible.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

That's the book of enoch, also look for the book of thomas.

[freetibet]

i am not incapeable of seeing truth when there is some present..

well there is truth in Islam and evolution and you're not seeing it...

Islam's emphasis on unity and their belief in 1 god is truth

atheists emphasis on logic as the basis of belief is truth

Nearly every religion on earth has something to offer to those willing to listen

@mikky
William Tyndale translated from the original Greek, not from the latin version

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

The man literally gave his life to ensure the bible was as pure as possible

@Abu
Do you think the 'oppression' the Muslims are facing is karma from when Muslims committed the Armenian genocide?

[Deetinator]

1) He repented because to him, he could have done more than what he had already done. You see you call my Muhammad (saw) out on what you think are sins, when your Jesus supposedly died for the entire's world sins, so a comparison of sins puts your Jesus as the biggest sinner of all time.
Self-sacrifice for the world. Jesus was sinless, which is what allowed him to do this. Because he was God, it allowed his sacrifice to cover the whole world.

2) I'll get your proof for you Insha Allah. I'll be waiting

3) Actually each Muslim believes in the Bible, Psalms and Torah, however according to Islam, those books were corrupted, Constantine for the Bible, after King Solomon's death for the Torah........
It might be interesting to note the Muhammed didn't have access to any of these books in his lifetime, and soon after his death when they DID have them in Arabic, it was discovered they conflict. So then "Oh, I guess the ancient books were corrupted, and not our 100 year old book."

4) I've already said that the Jews earned God's anger, by slaying his prophets and corrupting his word. By the way didn't the Jews, endorse the killing of Jesus.
Yes, the Jews earned his anger many a time, and they deserve it. But God always forgives them. And some Jews were responsible for Jesus death. Some also later died for Him.

I am not defending bombings, but just putting some reasoning here.
Screw that, you sure as hell are defending bombings!



You say that Jesus was a miracle birth which makes him unlike any man, agreed, but that does not give us reason to worship him,

According to the Quran, a human being cannot even create a fly, correct? Yet in the Quran, Jesus breaths life in mud, and creates a bird! Quran also states ONLY GOD can put life into a lifeless body. Yet Jesus had this power, and no one else did. Read here for more: http://www.farsinet.com/jesusinislam/indexe.html


If you wish to know the truth, or if you think what you believe to be true, you will not be afraid to go in here, and at least read for yourself.

[cstrikehero]

YAAAAY DEET!

There is truth in logic but there is no logic in evolution.. basic laws of physics basically state that the way evolutionist percieve the world to have started, is false!


The belief in 1 God is correct, but muslims have to travel once in their lifetime to basically worship a rock in mecca.. 1st commandment, you shall have no other god before me.. if they are worshiping a rock, they are denying this commandment.
i definatly dont agree with this

[crazyassmetalhead]

i'm gonna attempt to end the christian vs. muslim arguement at hand right now, with one simple question:


Who won the crusades bitches?

[Deetinator]

The Crusades were barely even Christian, and Europe just used mutual religion as an excuse for taking more territory. Besides, if whoevers right is based on military success, then muslims were wrong at the battle of tours? And only Saladin is right? Richard the Lionheart isn't? I doubt you were serious there, but I felt I had to respond to it nonetheless.

[cstrikehero]

they were mostly catholic. (hehe i watched joan of arch)

[freetibet]

i'm gonna attempt to end the christian vs. muslim arguement at hand right now, with one simple question:


Who won the crusades bitches?

Neither really...

Richard the Lionheart secured a truce with Saladin. Yet Saladin took Jerusalem from King Guy.

and the muslims seem to be having trouble securing Jerusalem, again. So 1000 years later Muslims are still trying to take the holy land from 'infidels' so its almost like the crusades are still going on.

[crazyassmetalhead]

they are but the musilms gained the most and lost the least (and the muslims have most of their holy land, it's only a few politcal groups actively trying to take anything now a days)

and deetinator actually has a valid point here "Europe just used mutual religion as an excuse for taking more territory"

people use religion in a lot of ways, that's really all it's for.....uniting people

[cstrikehero]

Of couse .. catholics had a history of that for a long time.. not to rag on them but they also used to sell salvation so .. i dont nessisarily trust them..

[crazyassmetalhead]

yes but what you fail to see is that all religions are essentially built on the same false promises and such, especially the christian ones. because no matter how much you'd like to deny it, the catholic church was the 1st established christian church, all other christina religions came after it, including yours (whatever it may be)

[freetibet]

yes but what you fail to see is that all religions are essentially built on the same false promises and such, especially the christian ones. because no matter how much you'd like to deny it, the catholic church was the 1st established christian church, all other christina religions came after it, including yours (whatever it may be)

The catholics weren't the 1st established Christian church...

You have no idea what your even talking about. Haven't you ever heard of the great schism? that's when catholics separated themselves from the rest of the Christians.

You might want to do some research before you start making assumptions about other people's religion.

edit*
I think the last... 3 posts... you've done here were historically inaccurate. You might have to start coupling your statements with research for me to believe any more of your 'facts'.

[crazyassmetalhead]

ya they were, and the 1st split didn't occur until 1054 ad

and that left the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church, and a shitload of more splitting occured afterwards

but the Catholic church was pretty much the dominant christian church until the protestant reformation



and i think i've made it blatantly clear that i don't give a flying fuck about what anyone anywhere believes, if you don't want to believe in well documented historical events than go for it



edit: nm that's what you were talking about, but the catholic church was active for a good 700 or so years before then, something must exist for it to split

[freetibet]

ya something did exist... but it wasn't the catholic church.

Even before the schism there were also believers in Arius' view of Christianity. That, in my opinion, is the right Christianity.

You have to remember the romans used to kill Christians, so the birth of Christianity obviously wasn't with the roman catholic church or eastern orthodox church

[crazyassmetalhead]

well it wasn't roman catholic until the split, just catholic

and it was the first established meaning major/dominant/accepted

[DoG MikkyW]

If you answer all of these questions, and I deem them logical and fit responses, I will leave this thread for 2 months.

1) It is shown that the bible was mainly word of mouth for 50-2000 years. What makes you think the word wasn't distorted? Be it purposefully or accidentally?

2) Why is the bible finished? It's done, no work is being done. Let's, just for a second, disregard the fact that is evolution. It is impossible, in any way shape or form, for you to disregard that the earth is at least 4 billion years old. (If you disagree, I will ask numerator-91 to come in here.) Either way, this doesn't disprove any of the bibles points. But if the earth has been around for 4 billion years, why is only a good accumulative 3000 or so years covered? What makes those years so special? (Disregarding the 40 or so years that cover the birth of christ?)

3) Whenever I bring up Revelations in a religious argument, I am told that it could be interpreted rather than taken literally. So why can't this be applied to the tale of the creation? What if it were symbolism? Maybe the 7 days were interpreted to be so, but are actually periods. (It makes more sense that way.) And on the seventh day he rested Logically it would be easier to explain that as the period in between the creation of the earth, and the beginning tales of the bible.

4) The bible states that those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior will not be accepted into heaven. The bible also says that heaven is a place in wish your every whim shall be fulfilled, you shall live together, in peace, and praise god eternally. (Not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure it's accurate enough.) But what if being with your atheist friend is the only thing which would make you happy? He's in hell, so would this be a loophole or what?

5) Same statement as question #4 regarding the lord and savior acceptance comment. Wouldn't this also mean that all Jews are destined to hell? As well as any other non-Christians? My main point is about Buddhism. Buddhists have never committed a sin, they have never even thought about a sin. Buddhists don't praise Buddha either, he is a role model as a priest in a church might be to a christian. Buddhists don't kill anything, they preserve god's creation. AND many have never been exposed to Christianity. This means that many haven't even doubted god. (If you remember, Jesus did doubt god.) So these sinless beings, will be sentenced to an eternity of hell by god, where, according to the bible, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in a inescapable furnace for all of eternity where the s***l of burning flesh and hair and the shrieks will cry to the heavens? That's where these peaceful people are being sent? I reject any religion with so little mercy as that.

6) Why can't evolution be part of Christianity?

7) Why do you believe the words of Peter and Paul, yet not the words of Einstein, Hawkings, Darwin, and countless of other reputed scientists? Evolution happens, it has been observed. AIDS is not incurable. AIDS vaccines have been developed, but AIDS regenerates and mutates DNA and RNA so quickly, that the vaccines are rendered useless in a matter of minutes. Moths in England will visually change wing color by generation if introduced into a different kind of environment. New Flu viruses come out every year. (That's why you can get the flu even after you've gotten a vaccine.) Many of these happen every day. My question is here, can you disprove every single one of these as a proof of evolution?

8) Why do the numbers and combination of number 3, 4, and 7 appear so often in the bible? It's just creepy.

9) The bible says Jesus will come again, so my question is this. If a woman came up to you, told you she was pregnant with the son of the creator of the earth, and that she had never had sex in her life, would you believe her?

These are my questions, I will check back and reply to any counter-questions/attacks.

[crazyassmetalhead]

should be more specific by who you mean when you say "you"

[DoG MikkyW]

should be more specific by who you mean when you say "you"

I mean all true christian believers.

[freetibet]

@mikky
were you addressing everyone in that post?

well it wasn't roman catholic until the split, just catholic

and it was the first established meaning major/dominant/accepted

No, it wasn't, christians were just christians. Why would followers of christ refer to themselves at catholics before catholicism was even created?

Even before the schism there were believer's in Arius view of Christianity.

I beg of you, research the subject so we can have a conversation about this, rather than me just explaining everything to you.

[crazyassmetalhead]

you're not explaining shit, just because it wasn't nessesarily refered to as the catholic church then doesn't mean it wasn't the same organization

as for the Arius view of Christianity, that emerged after the original founding of what today is known as the catholic church

[freetibet]

so your saying the original church became the catholic church after the schism?

So they are the rightful heirs to christianity?

I didn't think an atheist would care so much about that... lol

[crazyassmetalhead]

i'm not an atheist, i'm a nihilist. i don't give a fuck about any of this shit, but at least i know my fucking history.

just because the catholic church was the 1st form of christianity doesn't make the shit they believe any more relevant than the rest of of it.

[freetibet]

it wasn't the first form of Christianity...

seriously do you just cover your eyes when you see my posts?

edit*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarian#Early_Christian

read those...

[DoG MikkyW]

I was addressing everyone who believes I am wrong.

[crazyassmetalhead]

wow because wikapedia is an infalliable source of knowledge when it comes to theological and historic matters.....

plus the 1st link essentially supports what i'm saying. just because the name changes the organization and dogma are all still there...


"Catholic" appears in both the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed, statements of faith adhered to by almost all modern denominations. When the word "catholic" or "universal" is applied to the Church, it is generally intended to indicate that the institution is the uniquely legitimate Christian church intended for all of humanity.

In Christian theology the term is often used to imply a calling to spread the faith throughout the whole world and to all ages. It is also thought of as implying that the Church is endowed with all the means of salvation for its members."

[cstrikehero]

im gettin gtired of witnessing to you.. i have told you the gospel and really im tire of Bullcrap arguments from the history channel which has a reputaion for being inacurate.. wikipedia dosent count for sources either. which i know alot of u have used in this thread..

youve heard the truth yet you refuse to believ it. no ones going to force you to either.. we would just very much like to have as many of you over as possible at the party ;)..

dont say im closed minded because im not. im just not making myself exposed to things that could shake my faith.. im getting baptised next sunday..

so w/e there are people who want to hear the gospel who arnt dumb enough to not listen to the reasonability of it... good evening.. im going to watch TV

[Abu Shuja'ah]

Self-sacrifice for the world. Jesus was sinless, which is what allowed him to do this. Because he was God, it allowed his sacrifice to cover the whole world.

I'll be waiting


It might be interesting to note the Muhammed didn't have access to any of these books in his lifetime, and soon after his death when they DID have them in Arabic, it was discovered they conflict. So then "Oh, I guess the ancient books were corrupted, and not our 100 year old book."


Yes, the Jews earned his anger many a time, and they deserve it. But God always forgives them. And some Jews were responsible for Jesus death. Some also later died for Him.


Screw that, you sure as hell are defending bombings!





According to the Quran, a human being cannot even create a fly, correct? Yet in the Quran, Jesus breaths life in mud, and creates a bird! Quran also states ONLY GOD can put life into a lifeless body. Yet Jesus had this power, and no one else did. Read here for more: http://www.farsinet.com/jesusinislam/indexe.html


If you wish to know the truth, or if you think what you believe to be true, you will not be afraid to go in here, and at least read for yourself.

1) Jesus was God? or was Jesus a Man but with God inside? or was Jesus half man half God?

2) You aren't that learned are you? You do know Makkah was a religious place for all to make pilgrimage to for all religions and that Muslims met with Christians and Jews throughout their journeys.

3) They are still earning his anger.

4) and you aren't defending the mindless raping of little kids? On both sides small groups, so your point is?

5) You really got to clarify #1, before saying Jesus had the power.

As for Atheists, Quran speaks of Evolution and Aliens and Global Warming. Seriously.

[freetibet]

1) It is shown that the bible was mainly word of mouth for 50-2000 years. What makes you think the word wasn't distorted? Be it purposefully or accidentally?

from what i understand the apostles wrote down the gospels

2) Why is the bible finished? It's done, no work is being done. Let's, just for a second, disregard the fact that is evolution. It is impossible, in any way shape or form, for you to disregard that the earth is at least 4 billion years old. (If you disagree, I will ask numerator-91 to come in here.) Either way, this doesn't disprove any of the bibles points. But if the earth has been around for 4 billion years, why is only a good accumulative 3000 or so years covered? What makes those years so special? (Disregarding the 40 or so years that cover the birth of christ?)

The bible isn't a history of mankind, its a book about how to live a better life and save yourself, from yourself.

I think there are still many religious texts to go along with the bible, but that doesn't mean they need to be in it.

3) Whenever I bring up Revelations in a religious argument, I am told that it could be interpreted rather than taken literally. So why can't this be applied to the tale of the creation? What if it were symbolism? Maybe the 7 days were interpreted to be so, but are actually periods. (It makes more sense that way.) Logically it would be easier to explain that as the period in between the creation of the earth, and the beginning tales of the bible.

I believe most of the stories in the bible to be just that, stories. They help to teach us, not give us a historical documentation of events.

4) The bible states that those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior will not be accepted into heaven. The bible also says that heaven is a place in wish your every whim shall be fulfilled, you shall live together, in peace, and praise god eternally. (Not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure it's accurate enough.) But what if being with your atheist friend is the only thing which would make you happy? He's in hell, so would this be a loophole or what?

I don't believe in heaven and hell in the way you described...

5) Same statement as question #4 regarding the lord and savior acceptance comment. Wouldn't this also mean that all Jews are destined to hell? As well as any other non-Christians? My main point is about Buddhism. Buddhists have never committed a sin, they have never even thought about a sin. Buddhists don't praise Buddha either, he is a role model as a priest in a church might be to a christian. Buddhists don't kill anything, they preserve god's creation. AND many have never been exposed to Christianity. This means that many haven't even doubted god. (If you remember, Jesus did doubt god.) So these sinless beings, will be sentenced to an eternity of hell by god, where, according to the bible, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in a inescapable furnace for all of eternity where the s***l of burning flesh and hair and the shrieks will cry to the heavens? That's where these peaceful people are being sent? I reject any religion with so little mercy as that.

Same answer as your previous one... I don't believe heaven and hell are the way your described them.

6) Why can't evolution be part of Christianity?

Because evolution explains how, Christianity explains why. You can believe in both, but they don't have to be together.

7) Why do you believe the words of Peter and Paul, yet not the words of Einstein, Hawkings, Darwin, and countless of other reputed scientists? Evolution happens, it has been observed. AIDS is not incurable. AIDS vaccines have been developed, but AIDS regenerates and mutates DNA and RNA so quickly, that the vaccines are rendered useless in a matter of minutes. Moths in England will visually change wing color by generation if introduced into a different kind of environment. New Flu viruses come out every year. (That's why you can get the flu even after you've gotten a vaccine.) Many of these happen every day. My question is here, can you disprove every single one of these as a proof of evolution?

I believe in evolution...

8) Why do the numbers and combination of number 3, 4, and 7 appear so often in the bible? It's just creepy.

They are symbols of something else. Look it up.

9) The bible says Jesus will come again, so my question is this. If a woman came up to you, told you she was pregnant with the son of the creator of the earth, and that she had never had sex in her life, would you believe her?

Most likely no

[crazyassmetalhead]

im gettin gtired of witnessing to you.. i have told you the gospel and really im tire of Bullcrap arguments from the history channel which has a reputaion for being inacurate.. wikipedia dosent count for sources either. which i know alot of u have used in this thread..

youve heard the truth yet you refuse to believ it. no ones going to force you to either.. we would just very much like to have as many of you over as possible at the party ;)..

dont say im closed minded because im not. im just not making myself exposed to things that could shake my faith.. im getting baptised next sunday..

so w/e there are people who want to hear the gospel who arnt dumb enough to not listen to the reasonability of it... good evening.. im going to watch TV

then stop trying dumbass, you type like shit and have nothing to say..... here you are repeating yourself yet again.

[freetibet]

@Abu

You never answered my question...

Do you think the 'oppression' the Muslims are facing is karma from when Muslims committed the Armenian genocide?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

uh oh, we're into KARMA now.... Where's the oppression of Christians in return for the crusades, not to mention innumerable subjugations and centuries of civil disorder caused by religious strife?

[DoG MikkyW]

I don't believe in heaven and hell in the way you described...

Hell is described in the bible like I said.
Heaven however, I'm not sure, I forgot, I go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, don't believe in god. Whatever.

Other than that, thanks. You did a great job of answering my questions.

[freetibet]

Hell is described in the bible like I said.
Heaven however, I'm not sure, I forgot, I go to church every Sunday and Wednesday, don't believe in god. Whatever.

Other than that, thanks. You did a great job of answering my questions.

Well I think the fire and brimstone descriptions are just attempts to describe the pain of hell, not the contents of it. If you read C.S. Lewis' book the great divorce, that is my perception of heaven and hell.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I didn't know religious people were allowed to form their own opinions about religion.... don't you consider everything in that book to be accurate and exclusively so?

[MissTruant]

Clearly not, God gave us a mind to use and think freely. Religion is one of those things that does have evolve and adjust to the ages. When the Bible was written how different were times than as opposed to now. We'd never get to the bottom of anything if we didn't question or form other ideas, opinions and thoughts on various aspects of life; Bible and religion included.

Although, I choose not to believe in anything personally; religion just causes war and turmoil. Another reason for segregation.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Some might very successfully argue that any interpretation of the bible that draws a different impression from archaic convention is selectively editing religion for one's own gain... If religion has to evolve, how can any of it be considered relevant in this (as you pointed out) extre***y different age?

[MissTruant]

Disagree and agree in some aspects of your post.

Some people can argue that the Bible's "Revelations" are proof that it is real, and true words. However on the same notion some can argue that the Bible is nothing but words so loose and vague and can be easily applied or interpreted to anything in ones life. Like a horoscope for examples sake.

True. Everyone will get something different out of any religous text; it's open to interpretation. For one's own personal gain? Not really. If you have read parts of the Bible (which I'm sure we all have), it all generally has the same message and tries to get the same viewpoints, morals, and teachings across. I don't think it's bad in anyway; could teach a lot of good. But there are the handfull of naive, impressionable minds who choose to take and edit out of the Bible what they want and what they think is right. Example - those religious 'martyrs' who strap bombs to themselves and blow shit up for their God cause they think it's right.

Religion does have to evolve. And it still remains very relevant for those who choose to follow structured religion. We don't live in a time of farming, peasants, horse and buggy, wash ourselves in the ocean kind of times. Bible says no gays; over turned now it's legal. Bible says whoring yourself is wrong (sex before marriage etc etc.), contraception is wrong.

The Church needs to realize we don't live in the dark ages; things that are "abominations" are now part of a reality. The teachings, and underlying morals throughout the bibles text are still relevant. But why is it wrong for an 18 year old Christian to be using a condom while having sex because its wrong in the eyes of the Church.

Sorry that was really long...

[freetibet]

I didn't know religious people were allowed to form their own opinions about religion....

...Are you serious?

lol well now I know why you mock religious people.

[TotalAnarchyUK]

...Are you serious?

lol well now I know why you mock religious people.

You dont actually follow a religion do you?

[freetibet]

that depends on what you mean by "follow a religion"

I don't follow any "ism" but I follow Christ, and supplement his words with the words of other great religious teachers.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

That post was mocking religion in and of itself... What I meant was that in general there's only so many opinions one can have about a religion while remaining faithful to it. For example, I can't say that I'm Christian and I think Christianity sucks dick; in that case I'm not really of the Christian faith.

[DoG MikkyW]

I think there is no point in arguing anymore. Religion is a virus. But not just any virus, it is like the AIDS virus. You can think of something to stop it, but when you implement it, the virus just craftily changes itself in order to clear away from danger.

[Deetinator]

1) It is shown that the bible was mainly word of mouth for 50-2000 years. What makes you think the word wasn't distorted? Be it purposefully or accidentally?
Shown where? From what I understand scholars were responsible for copying it down. There accuracy at copying is shown through the dead sea scrolls. For me to think its word of mouth, I'll need proof, please, from a primary source.

2) Why is the bible finished? It's done, no work is being done. Let's, just for a second, disregard the fact that is evolution. It is impossible, in any way shape or form, for you to disregard that the earth is at least 4 billion years old. (If you disagree, I will ask numerator-91 to come in here.) Either way, this doesn't disprove any of the bibles points. But if the earth has been around for 4 billion years, why is only a good accumulative 3000 or so years covered? What makes those years so special? (Disregarding the 40 or so years that cover the birth of christ?) The fact of evolution? If you want to debate that, I'll be happy to, just invite me to whichever evolution thread there is. And what, you need num to fight for you?

Biblical view of the age of the earth says it started a little more than 4000 years before Jesus. The bible covers all that, up to the coming of the Messiah, and a little more after to wrap up, and we know what we are to do afterward, why do we need more?

3) Whenever I bring up Revelations in a religious argument, I am told that it could be interpreted rather than taken literally. So why can't this be applied to the tale of the creation? What if it were symbolism? Maybe the 7 days were interpreted to be so, but are actually periods. (It makes more sense that way.) Logically it would be easier to explain that as the period in between the creation of the earth, and the beginning tales of the bible.
Revelations was a vision of the future, quite different from recorded history. You can interpret it any number of ways. Sure, God could've used evolution, but it's not what He could've done, it's what He said He did.

4) The bible states that those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior will not be accepted into heaven. The bible also says that heaven is a place in wish your every whim shall be fulfilled, you shall live together, in peace, and praise god eternally. (Not a direct quote, but I'm pretty sure it's accurate enough.) But what if being with your atheist friend is the only thing which would make you happy? He's in hell, so would this be a loophole or what?
Being with a friend isn't the only thing to make someone happy. You forget God is there? The Great Divorce is a terrific book, which made things a little better for me to understand. It's not scriptural, mind you, but it offers understanding of the mindset for heaven. Basically, hell doesn't have veto power over heaven.

5) Same statement as question #4 regarding the lord and savior acceptance comment. Wouldn't this also mean that all Jews are destined to hell? As well as any other non-Christians? My main point is about Buddhism. Buddhists have never committed a sin, they have never even thought about a sin. Buddhists don't praise Buddha either, he is a role model as a priest in a church might be to a christian. Buddhists don't kill anything, they preserve god's creation. AND many have never been exposed to Christianity. This means that many haven't even doubted god. (If you remember, Jesus did doubt god.) So these sinless beings, will be sentenced to an eternity of hell by god, where, according to the bible, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in a inescapable furnace for all of eternity where the s***l of burning flesh and hair and the shrieks will cry to the heavens? That's where these peaceful people are being sent? I reject any religion with so little mercy as that. God is a judge of the heart, and Jesus said He wouldn't return until the Gospel is preached everywhere. And no person is perfect or sinless. If they say they are, they're lying.

Have you heard about how muslims in communities where the preaching of Christianity is not allowed have dreams and visions of Jesus coming to them? Even when they've never heard of Him? God will always find a way to reach people.

6) Why can't evolution be part of Christianity?
Again, it COULD be, but it's not about what could've been, what God SAID He did.

7) Why do you believe the words of Peter and Paul, yet not the words of Einstein, Hawkings, Darwin, and countless of other reputed scientists? Evolution happens, it has been observed. AIDS is not incurable. AIDS vaccines have been developed, but AIDS regenerates and mutates DNA and RNA so quickly, that the vaccines are rendered useless in a matter of minutes. Moths in England will visually change wing color by generation if introduced into a different kind of environment. New Flu viruses come out every year. (That's why you can get the flu even after you've gotten a vaccine.) Many of these happen every day. My question is here, can you disprove every single one of these as a proof of evolution?
Because that's not the same evolution! That's micro-evolution, not macro, which is what your precious theory is based off of. A moth becoming a different looking moth is not the same as a salamander becoming a lemur. Sure, even if a cat gets another set of ears, its not macro evolution. There's no new information, just a repeat chromosome. Seriously, if you want to debate evolution, let's do it, start a thread. Save up space here.

8) Why do the numbers and combination of number 3, 4, and 7 appear so often in the bible? It's just creepy.
What freetibet said.

9) The bible says Jesus will come again, so my question is this. If a woman came up to you, told you she was pregnant with the son of the creator of the earth, and that she had never had sex in her life, would you believe her?
He's coming on clouds, don't start splitting hairs when you don't even know what you're talking about.

[freetibet]

I think there is no point in arguing anymore. Religion is a virus. But not just any virus, it is like the AIDS virus. You can think of something to stop it, but when you implement it, the virus just craftily changes itself in order to clear away from danger.

I really don't understand why you have this opinion...

How is questioning your purpose like a virus? If you mean it spreads like a virus, well so does atheism. The characteristics you just described can be applied to any political, philosophical, or religious opinion.

[crazyassmetalhead]

i guess he means there hasn't really been the same record of genocide, wars, and restraint of free thought and logic attributed to atheism or having no religion


and the purpose of life is to reproduce and die, you don't really need religion to explain that

[cstrikehero]

LOL this is getting funny now..

freet well placed comment..

in fact, thats most people theory is that once your in, your in, and you follow it to the letter..
its not really like that.. you can have your own little pet peves and stuff you have about your beliefs at any time..
Mennonites gereraly dont dance.. just one of those things

unless your like muslim or somethin then they'll hook you up to a rocket lau...nvm

LOL

edit:

HEHE watch this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUWw3eJSmng&NR=1

[freetibet]

i guess he means there hasn't really been the same record of genocide, wars, and restraint of free thought and logic attributed to atheism or having no religion

Are you serious...?

I can start listing examples of atheists doing all of the above in the name of 'logic'.

and the purpose of life is to reproduce and die, you don't really need religion to explain that

Well that might be ok for you, but I think there is more to it than that. So do a couple billion other people...

[cstrikehero]

more than that!!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Are you serious...?

I can start listing examples of atheists doing all of the above in the name of 'logic'.

Get started, or I'll start rolling off conflicts based on religion or the lack thereof.

Starting with the subjugation of Nigeria and it's irreparable civil schism due to Christian influence in the south.

[freetibet]

I'm not saying people haven't killed in the name of religions before. I'm saying people have killed in the name of atheism and 'logic' before too.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Followed, perhaps, by a note about Northern Ireland or maybe WORLD WAR ONE

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Are you serious...?

I can start listing examples of atheists doing all of the above in the name of 'logic'.

I'm still waiting....

Ever read up on the fall of Rome, weakened horribly by religious turmoil?

[freetibet]

how is world war 1 religions fault?

and what does that have to do with anything?

edit*

I really don't know how you could think atheists have never killed religious people large scale but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianisation_of_France_during_the_French_Rev olution

There are also all the cases of religious people being killed in communist countries. I didn't really feel like finding specific examples of those though...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Search Bosnia pre-WW1, search beginning of WW1, search Serbo-Croatian conflict, anything.... seriously man, I don't post without thinking.


Back to my list....
Battle of the gravelines much?

EDIT: The Cult of Reason is not atheism; they designate a deity.

[freetibet]

i listed examples for you in my previous post, check the edit*

[Nebuchadnezzar]

9/11?
asdfgh

Edit: more later, it's 3:38 in the morning where I am

more edit: a) enough with the wikipedia, sheesh b) what were the revolutionaries fighting for? Not atheism, rather against the established norms. As that very article says, they celebrated a 'goddess of reason', a practice clearly adopted for the sake of dissension.

[freetibet]

What is the point of finding conflicts started by religious people?

I think everyone on the site has heard of the crusades and such...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I didn't mention the crusades, that comes later.

I am making the point that religion has incited far too many conflicts to be considered acceptable, even to one who believes.

Bombing of the USS Cole?

good night

[freetibet]

I am making the point that religion has incited far too many conflicts to be considered acceptable, even to one who believes.]

You really don't see the hypocrisy of considering something unacceptable because it has incited conflict before?

Atheism has incited conflict before too. So has race, are we going to consider black people unacceptable because of the civil war? Or a better example might be the Timil tigers, do you think their race is unacceptable because it incited a conflict?

You naivety astounds me.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

If my Naivete astounds you, I guess I'd better strike in the confusion.

The difference between religion and race is that religion is a choice. You choose to subscribe to a religion because you believe in God. Were I to believe, I would still avoid religious rituals for fear of becoming too zealous and getting corrupted by the faith's de facto mindset that other religions are lesser.

Atheism causes conflict, sure, but I can roll religious tragedies off the top of my head. What comes to mind when you think about Atheist conflict?

P.S. Don't even bother mentioning the Soviet Union, when they went to war it was in the name of conquest, not atheism.

edit: oh, right. Salem witch trials

[superflysuperwhite]

i'd just like to state, the the crusades... really were started because of religion.. religion was an excuse. it was all about greed, the time before the crusades.. western europe was a shithole. there ws a massive amount of poverty beyond what we could ever imagine, and that is because all the riches, from conquests and such had been taken by invaders, or lost or w/e. the crusades were a way to get back wealth and land. Fighting for "god" was used to fuel the fire... tell people if they go fight and die in the crusades they will go to heaven -at the time when religion was life- you'll have thousands of people ready to go and fight.


@ the salem witch trial thing..... i've picked up bud on Gallows Hill a few times (i live like five minutes away)... and peed there...
just felt like letting people know that lol

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I assume you mean "weren't"

[freetibet]

The difference between religion and race is that religion is a choice. You choose to subscribe to a religion because you believe in God. Were I to believe, I would still avoid religious rituals for fear of becoming too zealous and getting corrupted by the faith's de facto mindset that other religions are lesser.

Atheism causes conflict, sure, but I can roll religious tragedies off the top of my head. What comes to mind when you think about Atheist conflict?

P.S. Don't even bother mentioning the Soviet Union, when they went to war it was in the name of conquest, not atheism.

edit: oh, right. Salem witch trials

Ok what about political opinions. You choose those, and they have been the reason for many wars.

I already listed examples of atheism causing conflict. The jacobens, Chinese, and Russians have all killed Christians for not being atheists.

@the P.S.
If you can bring up the crusades, I can bring up the Soviet Union. Atheism behind the Soviet Union's conquests just as much as religion was behind the crusades.

[cstrikehero]

The difference between religion and race is that religion is a choice...


HEHE what about micheal jackson? LOL

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I didn't bring up the crusades, you did.

What is the point of finding conflicts started by religious people?

I think everyone on the site has heard of the crusades and such...

The underlying point is, more people have died in the name of god than in the name of 'no god', at such a ratio as to be almost totally inapplicable. Why did the bulk of settlers come to America?

RELIGIOUS FUCKING PERSECUTION!

No one told them that they'd be strung up if they believed in god, they were strung up for believing in a DIFFERENT KIND OF GOD....

@cstrikehero: hUr HuR, 133T d00d beez made FUNY!
now contribute or leave.

[freetibet]

The underlying point is, more people have died in the name of god than in the name of 'no god', at such a ratio as to be almost totally inapplicable. Why did the bulk of settlers come to America?

RELIGIOUS FUCKING PERSECUTION!

No one told them that they'd be strung up if they believed in god, they were strung up for believing in a DIFFERENT KIND OF GOD....

Well I think that has more to do with the fact that more people believe in God than believe in 'no god'.

I think i posted this already but... oh well

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1012/Go-God-Go!.html

edit*
So you think the answer to ending religious persecution, is the persecution all religion? I'm just wondering what it's going to take for you to see the hypocrisy of your opinion...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

All things considered, don't you think it might be smarter to remove even the slightest possibility of harming another human being for religious reasons?

[freetibet]

Even if I did, making everyone atheist wouldn't solve that. go to the the link i posted.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

What, the southpark episode? Am I to accept their material as valid political insight now?

[superflysuperwhite]

okay.. ima step in here a bit.

i whole heartedly believe religion is shit.. i even did a religion project on this fact.

BUT! the amount of faith some people actually have in religion is actually quite moveing. there are people who have nothing and no one but the church.

getting rid of religion would be one of the most demoralizing things that could happen to humanity.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Indeed, but perhaps religious zeal should not be taken to the extent that it is used to corrupt the judgment of the zealot, no?

The elimination of all religion would indeed cast the world into despair. This is because 'God' serves as an emotional balm to those who need one; this is why humans create Gods. God wouldn't be so important to religious people if they didn't need 'him' to function emotionally.

[freetibet]

@nebacabober
well i have a feeling comedy will help you see the light ;)

its a 2 part episode of what the world would be like if everyone was atheist. :D

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Have I implied that everyone in the world should be atheist? Like I just said, religion is a crutch for the faithful; many can barely live without it, but there are also a great number of violent zealots who really need to tone it down.

[freetibet]

So you don't think the world would be a better place without religion?

You don't think religion is 'unacceptable'?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Religion in the form of the zealot is wholly unacceptable, look where extremism has got us. Religion as a spiritual helping hand? Sure, but keep it to your fucking self howbout.

[freetibet]

well then i'd say this debate was a success

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Howcome? In this current argument, I came after you to prove that Atheists massacre and destroy in the name of Atheism as much as religious people do in the name of religion. You have named maybe two questionable (wikipedian) examples, hiding behind the smokescreen of Atheists being less numerous. Let's see some scholarly study links that prove your point, maybe the debate will be successful then.

[freetibet]

Well your more tolerant of religious people now, so in that regard it was a success.

And you haven't given any 'proof', which is worse than my 2 wikipedia articles. You named a bunch of examples, I named a bunch of examples. The only reason I listed those 2 articles is because not many people know about the jacobins massacring christians during the French revolution. I'm sure everyone knows that communists have killed lots of religious people though.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Lemme get this straight.. you think that I should prove 9/11 was religiously motivated?

[freetibet]

no, i'm saying neither of us should have to give evidence for every single example.

You said "Let's see some scholarly study links that prove your point"

I don't think i need to show 'scholarly study links' to prove the USSR killed religious people...

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Sure, but you might need to show that it was because they were religious instead of because they favored capitalism.

[freetibet]

So you think the USSR would tolerate communist christians?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Where did I say that? As an official statement, as a government, no. However, very few ordinary Soviets would hunt down Christians just because they were Christian.

[freetibet]

still works as an example of atheists killing religious people though.

People fight over all sorts of things. If everyone was atheist, there would be just as much or more fighting as when there was religious people. There would just be different reasons for it.

For instance, fighting over political ideals, race, or particular points of atheism.

[Deetinator]

Also, you mention 9/11 proves your idea of violence motivated by religion. So are you saying that just because someone from some religion does something bad, it means that all religion is bad? I don't think Buddhists are bad. I don't think that just being Buddhist will get you to God, but they as a people are not promoting evil like Islam does.

[crazyassmetalhead]

ya but their insistance on non violence is leading directly to their extinction at the hands of the chinese.

you say islam is promoting evil, but it's not. it's essentially the same as every other religion, except some of the die hard zealots of that one interpret their religious texts in a more hardcore way and act on them more....faithfully

[Nebuchadnezzar]

still works as an example of atheists killing religious people though.

People fight over all sorts of things. If everyone was atheist, there would be just as much or more fighting as when there was religious people. There would just be different reasons for it.

For instance, fighting over political ideals, race, or particular points of atheism.

Of course! However, you said there were Atheists who killed because of, in the name of, Atheism! Ergo, Atheists killing non-Atheists over random shit is inapplicable.

Also, you mention 9/11 proves your idea of violence motivated by religion. So are you saying that just because someone from some religion does something bad, it means that all religion is bad? I don't think Buddhists are bad. I don't think that just being Buddhist will get you to God, but they as a people are not promoting evil like Islam does.

You're kidding, right? 9/11 wasn't just done by religious people, it was motivated by religion! Each and every one of the terrorists was a fundamentalist Muslim zealot!

Islam promotes evil? How?

[Deetinator]

You're kidding, right? 9/11 wasn't just done by religious people, it was motivated by religion! Each and every one of the terrorists was a fundamentalist Muslim zealot!

Islam promotes evil? How?

You honestly just said those two sentences back to back? Those who kill in the name of Islam are fundamentalists, aka, they do EXACTLY what Muhammed said to do. Islam promotes killing of those who disagree with you. Do you know what the words Islam and Muslim actually translate to? Look it up, it's really something else.

@crazyass: It is certainly not the same as any other religion. I shouldn't even have to say that. Jesus helped and healed the poor, outcasts, unloveables. Muhammed militarily controlled cities, and used religion as an excuse. He was a pedophile, a thief, an enabler of rapists and looters. The die hard "zealots" are actually just doing what Mohammed did.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The current convention practice of Islam in the main stream in no way promotes evil. The fundamentalists subscribe to archaic convention interpretation; If all Christians followed Old Testament ideals I could say Christianity promotes evil.

[Deetinator]

No, you couldn't. The coming of the Messiah changed all of that, and you really won't understand that until you have an in-depth understanding of Christianity. If you want to say that Judaism promotes evil, I will invite you to debate some Jewish scholars on this at askmoses.com, and once your done, copy down your conversation with them, so that all of us can read it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I didn't and won't say that the current convention mainstream of any major religion promotes evil. That was you, remember? A "fundamentalist" Christian terrorist might be under the impression that nothing changed from the old testament, just as a fundamentalist Muslim terrorist may think the archaic convention of Islamic faith remains relevant in this changed world.

[DoG MikkyW]

Deetinator, disprove evolution right now. Keep in mind that I have about 3 scientific proofs that we've been around for 4 billion years or more, and about 50 proofs that we have evolved over that time.

EDIT: I know I said I wouldn't come back, but after I agreed with all of this religious bullshit, I check in to find that my name had been insulted, when I had left in good graces, by Freetibet, and Deetinator.

[superflysuperwhite]

No, you couldn't. The coming of the Messiah changed all of that, and you really won't understand that until you have an in-depth understanding of Christianity. If you want to say that Judaism promotes evil, I will invite you to debate some Jewish scholars on this at askmoses.com, and once your done, copy down your conversation with them, so that all of us can read it.

no of course the comeing of the messiah changed everything.. thats why there was, the spoanish inquesition, crusades, abortion clinic bombings, etc. etc. fundamental christians still believe in the laws of Judaisim (dont tell me i need to have an in depth understanding. because i do).

and i mean if you don't believe me look at the westboro baptsist church, and tell me they arent promoting "evil" "thank god for dead soldiers"? really? is that something a christian should be saying.

the comeing of the messaih only did one thing in terms of people tollerating people.. Now, if you8 dont except jesus christ as your lord and savior you aparently go to hell.

christianity, throught history has killed more people in the name of christ then any other religion has (though the jews might have considering they would. from time to time massacare whole towns and cities.) yet they preach peace all the time.

question, do you know any muslims? i do, and they don't believe in violence and stuff like they (sure they believe the christians and jews are all going to hell.. but thats for reasons you probably wouldnt even think of).

islam pretty much promotes just about everything judaisim does.

and as for spread islam by the sword, they did. Just like the christians and jews did. Islam just has the balls to come out and say it.

you may wonder why this is. well look at the time it came about, a time of conquest.

[Cuddles]

No, you couldn't. The coming of the Messiah changed all of that, and you really won't understand that until you have an in-depth understanding of Christianity. If you want to say that Judaism promotes evil, I will invite you to debate some Jewish scholars on this at askmoses.com, and once your done, copy down your conversation with them, so that all of us can read it.

dude....do you not understand what you're saying at ALL?

the coming of the messiah means that your ancestors were absolved of their sins, not that you have the right to be absolved of yours. you have to ask for that before it'll happen. and it does not change that many things which are mandated by the bible are archaic, stupid, and generally promoting "evils" in some way. his point was that anyone who follows a religious book to the T, inclusive of parts that preach that it's ok to have slaves as long as they are from a neigh*****g country, or parts that promote stoning people to death for acts that HARDLY warrant such behaviour, would be considered a fundamentalist (i do not necessarily agree with the sentiment that that's true, a fundamentalist is someone who believes in the core values of the book, not someone who uses those core values to twist the minds of others into doing their bidding, those people are just fucking assholes, is all)

islam is no more violent as a modern religion than christianity, or judaism, as modern religions, they do not promote violence in any way. those who decide to promote that violence, are using the religion for their own means, or that which they believe is their god's means. there are christian terrorists...and im pretty sure there are jewish ones as well, but to be honest, i dont think i want to waste my time looking up any in particular.

neubchadnezzer was stating that anyone who uses those core beliefs to twist the mind of someone is at fault, not the religion as a whole, and blaming the religion is fucking stupid, and that you were wrong that islam promotes violence. some parts of every religious text in the world (for the most part) promote violence in some manner, those parts, however, are very rarely followed in modern times.

[freetibet]

How about you guys all start worshipping me?

then there will be nothing to fight over, cuz everyone will agree on my superiority.

The only thing I really don't like about Islam is the tax that they're supposed to put on other religions.

[superflysuperwhite]

How about you guys all start worshipping me?

then there will be nothing to fight over, cuz everyone will agree on my superiority.

The only thing I really don't like about Islam is the tax that they're supposed to put on other religions.

yeah.. that doesnt happen anymore, and that was a better option then completly eradicating people like christians and jews would do if the people would convert.

[freetibet]

yeah.. that doesnt happen anymore, and that was a better option then completly eradicating people like christians and jews would do if the people would convert.

I'm pretty sure most countries in the middle east tax non-muslims. Most predominantly Christian countries are more tolerant. I heard that the coptic christians in arab countries are mostly all middle class, because poor people can't afford to be christian.

[superflysuperwhite]

eh, maybe it does happen, if that is the case it's probably because Islam is the countries religion

[Deetinator]

I didn't and won't say that the current convention mainstream of any major religion promotes evil. That was you, remember? A "fundamentalist" Christian terrorist might be under the impression that nothing changed from the old testament, just as a fundamentalist Muslim terrorist may think the archaic convention of Islamic faith remains relevant in this changed world.

If he thinks that nothing changed, then he hasn't read the bible. It doesn't sound like you have either, if you knew anything about it, you would know so much changed at the coming of Jesus. There hasn't been anything to change Islam, therefore, fundamentalists aren't being archaic, they are following what they've been told is true.

@ Dog: Let's start with the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. How do you explain planets that spin backwards?

@ superfly: Spanish inquisition, crusades, did Jesus do any of that? No, He didn't. Did Jesus say kill your enemy? No, He didn't. I can say "In the name of America, die mexican!" but does that mean America did it? No. All the political killings done in the name of religion, are actually done for politics. Did you really need me to explain that to you?

@ Cuddles: Do YOU understand what you're saying at all? There are Christian terrorists, ok, name one. Aryan nation? That's not Christian, didn't the Bible say it was for all people, not just whites? Islam is as violent as Christianity? That almost makes me laugh. You need to actually read the Quran, dude. Christians are always suiciding themselves into buildings, and then Christian nations are celebrating about it, yeah, that happens all the time -_- Don't waste my time with more stupid comments.

Need I remind you all about the constant persecution of Christians around the world? I'm pretty sure more Christians have died for Christ then have killed for Him. Why's that? Because that's what Jesus did for us. Real Christians aren't killing in the name of Jesus, they're just doing for themselves.

[superflysuperwhite]

If he thinks that nothing changed, then he hasn't read the bible. It doesn't sound like you have either, if you knew anything about it, you would know so much changed at the coming of Jesus. There hasn't been anything to change Islam, therefore, fundamentalists aren't being archaic, they are following what they've been told is true.

@ Dog: Let's start with the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum. How do you explain planets that spin backwards?

@ superfly: Spanish inquisition, crusades, did Jesus do any of that? No, He didn't. Did Jesus say kill your enemy? No, He didn't. I can say "In the name of America, die mexican!" but does that mean America did it? No. All the political killings done in the name of religion, are actually done for politics. Did you really need me to explain that to you?

@ Cuddles: Do YOU understand what you're saying at all? There are Christian terrorists, ok, name one. Aryan nation? That's not Christian, didn't the Bible say it was for all people, not just whites? Islam is as violent as Christianity? That almost makes me laugh. You need to actually read the Quran, dude. Christians are always suiciding themselves into buildings, and then Christian nations are celebrating about it, yeah, that happens all the time -_- Don't waste my time with more stupid comments.

Need I remind you all about the constant persecution of Christians around the world? I'm pretty sure more Christians have died for Christ then have killed for Him. Why's that? Because that's what Jesus did for us. Real Christians aren't killing in the name of Jesus, they're just doing for themselves.


What?, you said it all changed because of the comeing of the messiah... how? Because jesus said not to kill people? that doesnt mean people wont, No infact it just gave people even more reason to kill eachother. Nothing changed people kill in the name of christ just as people kill in the name of Ahllah which is "god" same one as christians at that.
and aboprtion bombings arent done in the name of polotics.

and have you ever read the koran.. I mean the WHOLE THING not just little out of context exerpts of the internet.

as for christian terrorisim....
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/pdf/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.australian/2006-04/msg00165.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/christian-terrorism.html
http://think.dumblaws.com/2006/10/good-old-christian-terrorism/
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm
http://signs-of-the-times.11th-hour.info/times5.html

that's just a few

like i said i actually know muslims, they are anti-violence.

heres another thing about christianity.. the fact they throught the middle ages they did nothing but kill themselves over the stupidest things, ever hear of the protestant reform?

[Deetinator]

you are a retard, you said it all changed because of the comeing of the messiah... how? Because jesus said not to kill people? that doesnt mean people wont, No infact it just gave people even more reason to kill eachother. Nothing changed people kill in the name of christ just as people kill in the name of Ahllah which is "god" same one as christians at that.
and aboprtion bombings arent done in the name of polotics.

and have you ever read the koran.. I mean the WHOLE THING not just little out of context exerpts of the internet.


like i said i actually know muslims, they are anti-violence.

heres another thing about christianity.. the fact they throught the middle ages they did nothing but kill themselves over the stupidest things, ever hear of the protestant reform?

It all changed with the coming of the Messiah because now people had forgiveness, love, and everyone could have a personal relationship with God, not just the high priest or a few prophets. Everyone could be with God.
That's right, it doesn't mean people won't, but does that make Jesus wrong?

Abortion bombings are done by people that think ending one life to save hundreds more is worth it. I personally see this as still counter-productive, because pro-lifers are supposed to promote life.

No, I haven't read the whole thing. But that doesn't change facts. I do know personally know muslims, and he's a terrific guy, but what I'm trying to say is that's not what original Islam is. Truth doesn't change. What was true before people could be with God is still true. But because Jesus came, there are new rules, but that doesn't mean the old rules were wrong.

I'll agree with you about middle ages and how messed up it was. I've just got this to say:
You seem to have forgotten the politics that are mixed in so much with the killings, which you agreed with up to abortion bombings, which I've already explained. By the way, when was the last time that happened? And I mean an actual bombing, when someone got killed?
If Christians were perfect, why would we need God?

As for the terrorists groups, you seem to have ignored what I said earlier. Those are not Christians, they are self-motivated, and choose to believe lies just for selfish gains. Kind of a common occurrence in this world of ours....

[superflysuperwhite]

It all changed with the coming of the Messiah because now people had forgiveness, love, and everyone could have a personal relationship with God, not just the high priest or a few prophets. Everyone could be with God.
That's right, it doesn't mean people won't, but does that make Jesus wrong?

Abortion bombings are done by people that think ending one life to save hundreds more is worth it. I personally see this as still counter-productive, because pro-lifers are supposed to promote life.

No, I haven't read the whole thing. But that doesn't change facts. I do know personally know muslims, and he's a terrific guy, but what I'm trying to say is that's not what original Islam is. Truth doesn't change. What was true before people could be with God is still true. But because Jesus came, there are new rules, but that doesn't mean the old rules were wrong.

I'll agree with you about middle ages and how messed up it was. I've just got this to say:
You seem to have forgotten the politics that are mixed in so much with the killings, which you agreed with up to abortion bombings, which I've already explained. By the way, when was the last time that happened? And I mean an actual bombing, when someone got killed?
If Christians were perfect, why would we need God?

As for the terrorists groups, you seem to have ignored what I said earlier. Those are not Christians, they are self-motivated, and choose to believe lies just for selfish gains. Kind of a common occurrence in this world of ours....


you can't say someone is christian for what they do.. if they say they are christians, believe in jesus etc. they are christians, they are RADICAL christians, just like the muslims who are terrorist, they are radicals. who are they being lied to by? and wouldnt that be the same for muslims then?


"No, I haven't read the whole thing. But that doesn't change facts. I do know personally know muslims, and he's a terrific guy, but what I'm trying to say is that's not what original Islam is. Truth doesn't change. What was true before people could be with God is still true. But because Jesus came, there are new rules, but that doesn't mean the old rules were wrong."

this doesnt make much sense either, what fact? you don't know what original Islam is. Islam is supposed to be the final word of "god" that is what the koran is the word of Allah to man.

And as for pollotics.. do you not relize that in europe for thousands of years.. the chruch was polotics? comon law all comes from religion. It wasnt polotics these people were all doing this in the name of christianity, what would the political purpose be of killing a bunch of jews and muslims (inquasition and crusades.)

last time anyone was killed in an abortion clinic raid/bombing was in 2000.


you're makeing up excuses for all these christians that could be said for muslims.

here's another thing.. jesus didnt create christianity, he was a devout hasidic jew. christians didnt exist while he was alive, and they didnt exist for quite sometime after he was dead.

[Deetinator]

you can't say someone is christian for what they do.. if they say they are christians, believe in jesus etc. they are christians, they are RADICAL christians, just like the muslims who are terrorist, they are radicals. who are they being lied to by? and wouldnt that be the same for muslims then?


"No, I haven't read the whole thing. But that doesn't change facts. I do know personally know muslims, and he's a terrific guy, but what I'm trying to say is that's not what original Islam is. Truth doesn't change. What was true before people could be with God is still true. But because Jesus came, there are new rules, but that doesn't mean the old rules were wrong."

this doesnt make much sense either, what fact? you don't know what original Islam is. Islam is supposed to be the final word of "god" that is what the koran is the word of Allah to man.

And as for pollotics.. do you not relize that in europe for thousands of years.. the chruch was polotics? comon law all comes from religion. It wasnt polotics these people were all doing this in the name of christianity, what would the political purpose be of killing a bunch of jews and muslims (inquasition and crusades.)

last time anyone was killed in an abortion clinic raid/bombing was in 2000.


you're makeing up excuses for all these christians that could be said for muslims.

here's another thing.. jesus didnt create christianity, he was a devout hasidic jew. christians didnt exist while he was alive, and they didnt exist for quite sometime after he was dead.

1. I can say that someone is not a christian. The Bible says we can know this by the fruit they bear, aka, their actions.

2. I know some verses of original Islam. If some muslims don't act the way a text says, ok. But it should be known then that they are not actual followers of the text.

3. 2000. 9 years ago. I think of that as change. Once people saw their actions weren't doing any good for them as a whole, they stopped. I just pray that it won't start up again.

4. The political purpose would be control. With muslims out of the way, the middle east, the most central trade crossroads, is controlled. Mutual religion was just a convenient excuse, it was not actually fought for God.

5. Not true. A "Christian", being someone who follows Jesus, existed at the crucifixion, and after the resurrection, when Jesus spoke to people. The Roman, "Surely this man was the Son of God." Jesus asking Peter if he loved Him. "Yes Lord, you know that I love you." C'mon man, and you say you know this in-depth.

[crazyassmetalhead]

haha you think the aryan nation is evenly remotely christian?
that's funny as shit, i think you're getting them confused with white supremicist groups in general (which the aryan nation isn't really, just a racial prison gang, not really racist...)

shit one of their main tatoos is 666 in a clover.

superfly did a good job correcting most of the other shit you misstated, just felt i had to point out that even in something as simple as naming one violent christian group you fail miserably, thus proving your ignorant biased views even more.

[freetibet]

this thread is getting ridiculous. I propose all religious debates be moved to enlightened individuals, and that particular points be made into threads.

I'm starting to get confused on whose saying what...

religion is such a broad topic this is likely to become all mixed up and bloated with opinions if made into one thread

[a2thae]

Fuck that...leave the religion shit in the forum RELIGION.

Look at what fucking forum this is!

Religion

Just make new threads about religious debates in here if you want to...