Beginnings

[RAV]

Now with the beginning of everything we effectively have only two answers. Something was created from nothing, such as the big bang. Or something has always existed. Both defy laws of physics.

We can say what created the universe, the big bang, and so on. Pretty soon you get so something or nothing. If nothing then how did it come about? If it always existed... how did it do this, how was it not created? I thought of this and I confused myself trying to figure out how one or the other could work. This is a true paradox for the ages.

[A Deo et Rege]

The laws of physics say matter can neither be created nor destroyed, so something cannot be created form nothing. However, that suggest that matter has always existed, and that is an extre***y hard concept to understand, but in the grand scheme of things it is not so unlikely. The reason it is such a hard concept to grasp is that we are comparing it to our time scale, and measuring time in years is not sufficient to describe the eons of time that the universe will exist and has existed. I have done some reading and the most logical, but misunderstood, event that brought about the beginning of the universe is the collision of two extra-dimensional universes located in the multiverse. This is most logical because it does not require matter being created from nothing, but then you might ask where the other universes came from. That is a mystery unto itself, and will probably stay a mystery for centuries to come, but one day we will unlock the "secrets" of the universe and be able to answer these monumental questions.


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[numerator-91]

if it didn't always exist then there would be nothing...ever. existence simply wouldn't exist

[itismesaj]

There has to be a "first act." An act that causes every event after that to occur. This goes down to basic determinism. Without that first act, nothing would ever happen. The question is, "What was that first act?" Because something had to cause the Big Bang to occur. It wasn't a random act. Something (i.e. God) caused it.

Now, I am using the easy way out: saying God caused it. But what caused God to do it? Thus, causality continues.

[RAV]

The theoretical birth of our universe was created by two parallel universes that smashed into one another, yes I saw that you said that deo. The question now becomes how did those come into existence?
If it was god then did he always exist or was he created by something?
(so saj did you want to chose option B)

I know this is an impossible question to answer with the point that we are at.
Personally I don't know how something can always exist because everything is created, but cant be created from nothing. That is why I said that it is a paradox.


This would be a good debate.

[itismesaj]

I chose option C because, as you said, it's a never-ending cycle of predestination.

For the record, I was giving God as an example.

[Shanx]

Umm...I'm curious. This probably seems like a stupid question but, is the Big Bang the very first act in the universe. (Let me rephrase that.) Is the big bang the first "creation of the universe"?

I cant put it too simple. Whenever the universe is caused by 'a' big bang, the universe stretches out and when it reaches a certain length, it reverses and collapses into itself. "Big Crunch" or a "heat death" and then it repeats.

So is the Big Bang referred to as the first one or are they all "big bangs"? I'm just wondering what its called. (if there is a term)

[itismesaj]

You're saying that the universe is forever in a cycle of Big Bang -> Big Crunch -> Big Bang, etc., right? In which case, that is a theory, but we are talking of the first act. The origin of everything.

[Shanx]

Oh yeah of course. I was just wondering what it is called.

As for the poll, I doubt that something can be created by absolutely nothing. Maybe a higher being took energy and manifested it into matter and...I dunno where I'm going but i think you get my drift.


(I'm not saying God either. I do not believe in this superior being the way god is portrayed)

[RAV]

I used god as an example as well.
Well we do know that the universe has an age. The big bang was theorized to be created from one of two things. 1) Parallel universes crashing into one another 2)nothing.

There are three theories to the big bang also. 1) The universe was born and it is ever expanding at a slowing rate, think of a hyperbola (this is called an open universe) 2) Born and is forever expanding but the rate approaches zero, like an euclidean (this is a flat universe 3) Born, growth, stop, collapse, born growth... (this is called a closed universe)

But once again I don't think you two understand the question. The question is "Can something always exist or does it have to be created by nothing?" Was the fundamental thing, or things that led to the birth of the universe created from nothing or did it always exist. Both defy the laws of physics that we have today. Also, energy is not nothing. Energy is something. But can energy always exist?

Either way this can be helpful to us. If we find out that something has always existed we can find out how. Making us always exist. If we find out that and how something was created from nothing well... there you go, you can have whatever you want.

Neither make sense and nothing can be correct till proven.

The only possible way that we could figure this out, that i can at least think of, is to find out the age of energy. If we find energy that tops out into an infinite sequence this will be an answer, but if it has a point where it was created then we will not know.

[frankenstein]

actually the big bang theory dose not say something was created from nothing it states that their was a primordial atom that had gravity, space, time, and what not in it. and matter can be created by energy and when the atom blow up it created all the matter from the energy.

which still leaves their always being matter. which to me is not odd i believe everything always was and always will be. maybe after the big rip all the matter that flows in black holes meet up and create the primordial atom again and the cycle continues like it always had< that probably dose not fit with physics and math but im not a mathematician so ignorance is bliss.

[RAV]

so your answer is A something has always existed. That is why C says WTF.

[A Deo et Rege]

I think you might find this information interesting:

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/13/thinking-about-time-before-the-big-bang/

http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

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[Shanx]

actually the big bang theory dose not say something was created from nothing it states that their was a primordial atom that had gravity, space, time, and what not in it. and matter can be created by energy and when the atom blow up it created all the matter from the energy.



woah i said that and i didnt even know lol

[numerator-91]

if it didn't always exist, then how did it come about?
and don't say God did it cos that aint good enough for me

[Shanx]

don't say God did it cos that aint good enough for me

I hate when people do that. Give me proof of God please."The Bible" is what I get whenever I ask.

[A Deo et Rege]

Did anyone go to the links I provided in my last post, and actually read what they said?


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[Spyre]

I dont think its possible to know how the universe began. Everything that exists has to have been created, and everything that has been created has to have had a creator. Even if we found out what caused the big bang, we will have to find out what made that, and then what made that, and it will just keep going on until we all die and go extinct somehow. What im saying is that its impossible to know what made the universe.

[Shanx]

Well duh. Lol I'm pretty sure we are all just making educated guesses but whatever.

And Deo I'm gonna take a look at those sites later because I am very interested in space and the big bang. Anything about space in general actually.

[superflysuperwhite]

i read the deo!

im not a fan of the multiverse theory, sounds too farfetched to me, and aprently to the dude in the article too.

the second one though, really didnt explain the before paret just the bigbang and the outcome

[numerator-91]

Did anyone go to the links I provided in my last post, and actually read what they said?


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no .

[itismesaj]

No, RAV, I understand the question. The problem is I don't know what to believe. My beliefs contradict at that point. That's why I chose option C.

[RAV]

That is more the point of this thread though. I well understand that it is impossible to comprehend one or the other. I understand that one will never know the answer. Even if we are in a closed universe we won't know that untill the day when things start collapsing. The idea is to get everyone to start thinking and explaining their thought. I am curious on this subject and I wanted imput from others, I may infact do a IB report for my physics class on just this subject.

[RAV]

Did anyone go to the links I provided in my last post, and actually read what they said?


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Yes deo I have just read them. They do not much concern what we are talking about here. They just talk about the fact that we know that there was a big bang and we don't know what happened before that. That is why I am asking the question. No one knows the answer (or infact can because it is a conundrum)

[frankenstein]

if you believe in god or the big bag you believe something has always existed. however i think the question is irrelevant in time we will learn some truth that discredits the question. when they thought that the earth was flat they wondered how it was held up. it was a turtle standing holding up the entire earth, well what was the turtle standing on another turtle and that one its turtles all the way down. looking at the moon they learned that the earth was round making the question pointless.

[RAV]

Personally I think that this is the end question/s. If you would like to support your statement with an alternative solution I would truly like to hear it. Otherwise, read what I have written.