Does Randomness Exist?

[a2thae]

I mean true randomness. I used to be pretty sure randomness was just unpredictability, not something without a cause but just where the result is pure probability.

However I have done some thinking and a little research.

The pure probability is pseudo-randomness, not true randomness. That is the kind of randomness that can be generated by computer programs. It appears to be random but it is fully predictable, except it's very hard to predict due to the large number of variables.

Wouldn't true randomness be something that couldn't be predicted at all;even if you knew all the variables?

Interesting thought eh?

[Warpurlgis]

Random works in theory.
Is an interesting thought.

Is there a such thing as nothing?

[meat]

yes but its an idea not a physical thing (to warpurlgis)

[a2thae]

Random works in theory.
Is an interesting thought.

Is there a such thing as nothing?

You can always postulate that our failure to predict is due to the existence of variables we cannot measure. I think that cancels out the random theory..

I suppose there is such thing as no thing;as you take away existence. I suppose a better question would be;Is the lack of existence the same as nothing?

Also is the lack of randomness = determinism?
I guess determinism is just a form of the absence of randomness..err if that makes sense

Ahahaha my mind is going all over the place today.

[numerator-91]

by definition a random event is an event that occurs with no prescribed pattern or order or least no pattern or order that we mere mortals can comprehend

[A Deo et Rege]

Well, said numerator; I would have been a bit more technical, but you get right to the point. The only thing I have to add is that the universe if full of random occurrences, and the best way to illustrate this is a psychopathic serial killer; the reason they are so hard to catch is that they have no discernible pattern to their killings.


..)/\(
<Deo>
..)\/(

[numerator-91]

can "whoever is in your way" be defined as a pattern

[A Deo et Rege]

Good question, but I think not because that could be anyone, and can be constantly change based on a myriad of variables. In order for something to have a pattern it has to have some form of constant that is the same with all the events that occur, and said constant can be use to predict future events with some sort of accuracy.

..)/\(
<Deo>
..)\/(

[a2thae]

by definition a random event is an event that occurs with no prescribed pattern or order or least no pattern or order that we mere mortals can comprehend

I think that if you know that exact value of that "event" you can predict what is going to happen next. A good example of that is chaos; which most people simply assume is random. By technical definition, chaos is deterministic,...just sort of disorganized.

"Well, said numerator; I would have been a bit more technical, but you get right to the point. The only thing I have to add is that the universe if full of random occurrences, and the best way to illustrate this is a psychopathic serial killer; the reason they are so hard to catch is that they have no discernible pattern to their killings.


..)/\(
<Deo>
..)\/( "

They do have pattern in their killings. The mindset of a psychopathic serial killer is someone that sets off a tic it causes them to just kill. It is predictable, once you know what that tic is; whether it be just seeing someone at a certain time of day, or just if someone looks at them a wrong way.

[exial]

who gives a shit if randomness exists.

[numerator-91]

all the retarded high school girls and emo kids that think randomness is hilarious. how i want to murder them all...........................

[A Deo et Rege]

I think that if you know that exact value of that "event" you can predict what is going to happen next. A good example of that is chaos; which most people simply assume is random. By technical definition, chaos is deterministic,...just sort of disorganized.


I don't think it's possible to find the exact value of any moment if a human is a participant in said moment. The reason is that humans are unpredictable, and when under great stress logic and reason do not govern their actions, so it would be impossible to predict any sort of valid outcome no matter how much information you have on the event.

**Of course chaos is deterministic--everything is deterministic because the outcomes of all events are the inevitable consequence of antecedent sufficient causes**

They do have pattern in their killings. The mindset of a psychopathic serial killer is someone that sets off a tic it causes them to just kill. It is predictable, once you know what that tic is; whether it be just seeing someone at a certain time of day, or just if someone looks at them a wrong way.

Not all serial killers have a tic that could cause them to kill. In the majority of the cases I have seen and read about, the killers found their victims by chance, and killed them just because they were in the wrong place at the right time. They even went as far as to say they killed their victims just because they could, or just to see them die. There is no discernible rhythm to such a killer because his victims are, for the lack of a better word, chosen at "random."

..)/\(
<Deo>
..)\/(

[a2thae]

who gives a shit if randomness exists.

I obviously do dumbfuck. This is an "enlightened individuals" thread. Why the hell are you on it if you aren't going to contribute anything useful to it? A concept of existence is philosophical which probably belongs in this thread, and anyone who likes to think probably gives a shit.

Dipshit.

I don't think it's possible to find the exact value of any moment if a human is a participant in said moment. The reason is that humans are unpredictable, and when under great stress logic and reason do not govern their actions, so it would be impossible to predict any sort of valid outcome no matter how much information you have on the event.

**Of course chaos is deterministic--everything is deterministic because the outcomes of all events are the inevitable consequence of antecedent sufficient causes**



Not all serial killers have a tic that could cause them to kill. In the majority of the cases I have seen and read about, the killers found their victims by chance, and killed them just because they were in the wrong place at the right time. They even went as far as to say they killed their victims just because they could, or just to see them die. There is no discernible rhythm to such a killer because his victims are, for the lack of a better word, chosen at "random."

..)/\(
<Deo>
..)\/(

Ahh. Since it's not possible to find the exact value, the pseudo-randomness exists. Not true randomness.

But I guess you are right when you say there is no discernible rhythm to that killer.

Also, a better word(s) perhaps for the serial killer and his victims... chosen at "killer's whims"

[exial]

I obviously do dumbfuck. This is an "enlightened individuals" thread. Why the hell are you on it if you aren't going to contribute anything useful to it? A concept of existence is philosophical which probably belongs in this thread, and anyone who likes to think probably gives a shit.

Dipshit.



Ahh. Since it's not possible to find the exact value, the pseudo-randomness exists. Not true randomness.

But I guess you are right when you say there is no discernible rhythm to that killer.

Also, a better word(s) perhaps for the serial killer and his victims... chosen at "killer's whims"

who the fuck are you to be telling me anything motha fucka. fucking fagit.

[numerator-91]

shut up exial at least he can spell and provide stimulating conversation

[a2thae]

who the fuck are you to be telling me anything motha fucka. fucking fagit.

I'm someone who is questioning your intelligence, and questioning your presence in a conversation you more than likely don't understand. Anyway, instead of littering this thread with meaningless flaming if you want to try to start shit with me; do it via pms. I'll just ignore it, and life will go on.

I could respond with something like "Dude. Your a fucking prick with nearly no obvious intelligence. Go bang your cousin or whatever it is you rednecks do, and shut the fuck up." But I won't. This isn't the bullshit forum besides I like to follow a saying--

"Fighting over the internet is like the special olympics..even if you win your still retarded."

I'll simply set this aside, and let you be a retard and flame me if you choose to.

Back to the topic.---------------------------------------------------------

**Of course chaos is deterministic--everything is deterministic because the outcomes of all events are the inevitable consequence of antecedent sufficient causes**

I'm not a big fan on determinism, but I can't really dispute it. Anyone have a view on it?

An easier example of determinism could possibly be that determinism would say that everyone here was destined to write these posts from the beginning of the world, driven by a chain of prior causes.

I feel you either have to be with determinism 100% or not at all. Maybe I should start a separate thread..because I'm not sure if determinism and randomness can coexist..

[exial]

shut up exial at least he can spell and provide stimulating conversation


stimulating conversation! lol wat u doin wankin? :D:D:D

[numerator-91]

*sarcasm* HA HA HA

[itismesaj]

I am a firm determinist. I think free will is an illusion. Every event is predestined by the event before. It all goes back to the first act; that is, the big bang (supposedly).

Einstein had a theory (do not ask for it, I do not know the name) that posed the idea that, since causality (the event that occurs because of determinism) is always in motion, it would be possible to look - not travel, but look - into the future. However, knowing the future would not help anything, because, since you looked at the future, that event would occur, no matter what. So, no matter what you do, that event would happen.

Interesting stuff, eh? It boggles the mind.

[numerator-91]

ive heard of that theory and it actually does make some logical sense. however humans are stupid, violent, irrational and unpredictable. can a sentient lifeforms actions really be predetermined

[itismesaj]

Think of it this way:

You wrote that response because you saw that I had written a response. Because formerly you had been an advocate of free will, you are reluctant to believe a new one. And because you wrote a response, I am writing one right now.

Make sense?

[numerator-91]

not really.

[itismesaj]

I thought as much. I will admit that I suffer from hindsight bias (believing that, after an event has occurred, it would have been possible to predict it), but that still does not change the fact that I am writing this reply because you don't get what I said.

Causality:
Action; reaction; reaction; reaction;...

[numerator-91]

yeah i think i know what your getting at, however i would like to think that i do control my own life rather than every single actionbeing predetermined at the dawn of the universe

[itismesaj]

Well, nothing's stopping you from believing that :).

[RAV]

eh nothing is random, it's to the extent that YOU control it to in comparision how much you see how randomless it is. it's all about perception and how you associate things, this is molded in your younger years as your synapses prune and you get set in your ways, then around 25 your body can no longer keep up with the mass demand of cells and slowly starts the aging process until finally and predictably you die wich is almost as "suprising" as itsmesaj's inevitable reply. you can think forward and backward if you'd like but time is more equation a process that is slowly unfolding at a constant rate but whose ending result cannot change.Think about this if i had 1 pound of butter, one pound of ass and a pound of cheese. no matter how i mixed it i would always have 1lb butta, 1 lb cheese, 1lb ass. or if 1 + 1 + 1 =3 no matter how you add them it's going to be three, but does each one know there is a preceeding one or a later? no but non the less it is how it will be, time is just the catlyst (think buffer) .now the universe is ever changing, electrons, protons, quarks, wimps, NA,. you ever stop and think about how multidimension the universe is? so many infinite levels of existance, and i don't mean in an astrological or religious definition. but the actuality of constant perpetual energy we will always have the same amount of mass and energy in the universe for it cannot be created or destroyed only changed it's like zillions x googls of tiny particles in the universe theres a set number but they can change and bind etc. but no matter what it will always have the same sum in the end. the ability to control mass and grav feilds with electrons. size etc is all dependant on the size of the perciever. one would of course use oneself as a reference. another thing that one must take to acheive even some sort of psuedo-precognition would be the ability to assess a situation unbiasedly. such as people who beleive in god or miracles. have no place on this earth. but hey free country free world. life is science, life is fact, the biggest problem in the english language? the word "can't" with infinite resources anything is possible and with infinite resourcefulness anything can be obtained. so what does this mean? get off your lazy ass go to the library and learn something.


if i give you 1/3 of a dollar and 2 of your freinds if you put it back would it be a dollar?


2+2=5 buddy, think about that one. Its a true statement.

When you say that the universe will always have the same amount of matter and energy you contradicted yourself by talking about it being multidimensional. The thing about dimensions is that matter, and energy, can travel through them. Thus your closed universe, one which would have an "end", would in fact not have the same amount of energy or matter, thus creating a butterfly effect. This changes one or more possibilities in such a scenario. Thus with a closed universe everything has happened that can happen, and we will forever repeat the cycle, but I don't believe in this.

You can not control gravity with electrons. This is because electrons fall under the category of electromagnetic, one of the 4 known forces in the universe (the other three being: Strong Nuclear Forces, Weak Nuclear Forces, Electromagnetism, and Gravity [their power being in the order stated]). Now gravitons do fall under the force of Gravity.

Also, if you are attempting to sound smart realize that zillion is not a word.

Thus we conclude that you are an idiot and should go read a book.

[RAV]

This post is my answer to the original question.

Randomness only exists if you believe in it. This can simply be shown by ink spots on a paper. Why they ask you to tell them what it looks like is because the human mind wishes and craves order. Everyone will order it in a different way according to their experiences, while these blotches remain nothing but blotches. And yes I realize that the blotches were formed by the ink landing a certain way on the paper that it created this blob, and that if you recreate those circumstances it will do it again.
But also do not get me started on quantum physics. The reason people have such a hard time with quantum physics is that it deals solely in the realm of statistics.

This is yet another question that can never be answered. There are many of these, yet because of the human mind's need for order people will always ask these questions which the answer they shall not receive.

[RAV]

well mass its good to see you back, and stoned.
Anyways I'll leave hacking to you, leave the physics to me.

i don't get what dark matter has to do with anything. Yes it accounts for the majority of mass in the universe but supermassive black bodies will do that.

the two definitions of dimensions are the same because of the essence of there being multiple. Most consider us to be in the 4th dimension, yet there are considered to be a near infinite amount. The dimensions coexist with one another and thus are related. Our universe was considered to first be formed by the colliding of two such other dimensions.
I do get what you mean though.

Mass being a computer person you run off of pure mathematics. Physics there are things that you just have to accept that you can not understand and that everything conceivable, and more, can be done.

Nice song lol. Btw why did you get banned in the first place.

[techtiger]

i started typeing this by saying no there is no such thing as random because there is always a set of variables to consider no matter how minut, but then i thought of something. if i were to tell you to pick any number no matter how big or how small, there is no way to determin what number i it will be because the variable is infinite in both directions. there for that number would be a random number

[numerator-91]

i started typeing this by saying no there is no such thing as random because there is always a set of variables to consider no matter how minut, but then i thought of something. if i were to tell you to pick any number no matter how big or how small, there is no way to determin what number i it will be because the variable is infinite in both directions. there for that number would be a random number

but what if there is a preference fo a certain number

[Exploding_viper]

i guess i could say i believe in determinism cuz you.
1) learn fom the society around you (ex. i bet mine and numerators mindset is different due to us being across the world from each other)
2)like father, like son and like mother, like daughter
3) randomness isnt truely possible because psychology can help to understand how people think, and one you know how they think, once you can know how they think you know their emotions, once you know what they feel, you can estimate what they will think, say, and act, and rarely you can guess right. this can be carried over to other et cetera things with other sciences, mathematics, and historys. HOWEVER, with this said above, what may be random to one person may not be random to another.

[itismesaj]

i started typeing this by saying no there is no such thing as random because there is always a set of variables to consider no matter how minut, but then i thought of something. if i were to tell you to pick any number no matter how big or how small, there is no way to determin what number i it will be because the variable is infinite in both directions. there for that number would be a random number

No, it wouldn't.
You would choose a number based on events before it. Consider this:
When asked to think of a number between one and ten, I almost always pick seven.
I pick seven because, when I was littler, I watched a movie where two twins always picked seven at the same time. It just stuck.
Sometimes, I pick a different number to "mix things up a bit." That number is normally three.
I pick three because most people do. And since most people do, I do, because that makes me win.

So, in summary, every number you pick could, theoretically, be predicted. And, by extension, every event.

[techtiger]

i did a little thinking after i posted that and i agree there could be outside factors such as..... if had you look at the number 5 for a half hour befor i asked you to list that number you prob. throw alot of fives in there, on the other hand you could think of that and purpously not add alot of fives. there isnt exactly a defenate outcome, you cannt predict what will happen. as far as for itismesaj's comment if you limit the possible numbers to be chosen you then are able to predict a numbers odds which would then make it not random, however if you do not limit the numbers able to be chosen it would impossible to predict what number some one will chose
as to numerator, i aggree people have a preference to a number if ask 1-10 or maybe even 1-100 but no one has a favorite 20 digit number, the only factor that comes into play is what nuron is fired off at evey second when just rambling off numbers, no way to predict it

[Comrade Hayden]

Perhaps randomness is merely a concept invented by the human race to justify other things. Statistical randomness does not seem possible in natural settings, and therefore, does not exist in any settings other than under clinical lab conditions.

[RAV]

Do you guys know a little thing called quantum physics? It was invented by Einstein and since that day he tried to prove himself wrong, till the very day that he died.

There is a famous quote that Einstein has because of this "God doesn't play dice."

The problem with quantum physics is that nothing is for sure. Everything has a possibility to do something but no one event is going to happen every time under the same circumstances. The quantum level works differently than the macro world. In the quantum level randomness exists and you can not argue with this because you will not find any evidence to support your idea. So suck it. Randomness exists.

(If you wish to argue with the above statement make sure you: Have an IQ above 50, Will back up your supporting argument with sources, and don't be an idiot.)

I'll save you time, you won't find anything to prove me wrong.

[Pactum]

nothing is random, everything is connected.

can anyone guess where i got that from???

[Pactum]

a movie! ....heheheheh.

close... it's actually from a TV show called "Life". dunno if you've seen it.

and as for the other stuff above. dayum son, thats a lot of stuff i DID NOT understand. hahaha :D

[Comrade Hayden]

Do you guys know a little thing called quantum physics? It was invented by Einstein and since that day he tried to prove himself wrong, till the very day that he died.

There is a famous quote that Einstein has because of this "God doesn't play dice."

The problem with quantum physics is that nothing is for sure. Everything has a possibility to do something but no one event is going to happen every time under the same circumstances. The quantum level works differently than the macro world. In the quantum level randomness exists and you can not argue with this because you will not find any evidence to support your idea. So suck it. Randomness exists.

(If you wish to argue with the above statement make sure you: Have an IQ above 50, Will back up your supporting argument with sources, and don't be an idiot.)

I'll save you time, you won't find anything to prove me wrong.
Quantum physics was not invented by Einstein. He was the first to patent his THEORY on quantum physics. Big difference.

[itismesaj]

wow... even the way we think differs severely. i can see some conceptual ineptism on saj's part deffinitly rearing it's ugly nubby head (and yes using perdy words that i can vocalize and rhyme simultaneously is cohesive to mah stoned current state)

everything started and everything ends if you put 100 blocks of carbon and 100 blocks of steel and a 100 blocks of gold in a bucket and stir them your going to still have the same ammount of each and yet they will fall in different places etc. now what your finite mind cannot comprehend is that the fucking amount of torque and time and any other variable that could change the outcome can be put in perspective and summed. 2+2 will always = 4 . you can break it down. a normal mind see's random, a trained mind see's pattern. a mind like your's see's ignorant idealism. does it matter? nope was going to happen anyway. but does that stop me from doing what i choose? nope no consequence everything is guageable everything is acceptable. everything can be applied. with no moral or socialised psyche structure, not having to follow the mundane normal formalities, i make great money, work great hours, do what the fuck when i want... on my own, own my car, all insurances + . so do i have to worry what a kid who has not backed up shit? who every answer drips with ignorance. don't say shit saj. do something, invoke thought, be something, fuck the skiddies, actually use your knowledege (if you have any) to prove me wrong, arguing aint going to cut it. iv'e proved my independant worth countless times over and over, any senior member will attest to that, you can have the skids. so don't give me some quip. prove it? all i ask is to prove it. stop reread what iv'e said i havent asked you to do something rash. im asking you TO PROVE YOUR STATEMENTS. thats how you earn cred :p i might be a fucking asshole to everyone i dont care if i am or not. but every statement i make is to the point blunt honest and 10000x more infomative than you will ever supply. i'm 20, i live on my own, 10 yrs comps, 2 yrs college, and i got a kickass job. wtf more could i ask for. what do you have? anon thats it because you wont show shit about yourself. insecure much?

the question isnt "2+2=4" it's at this point and time when asked the supplied answer at this exact space time coordinate was 2+2=4, the universe is a big ass joke. your just 5 seconds behind.

meh your ruining mah buzzz

I proved LNT wrong when he asked me for evidence, and I will do so to you right now:

The Deterministic Variation of the Axiom of Causality dictates that all causes have effects, and all effects logically follow the physical laws of the universe, so all events follow a theoretically predictable pattern, thus all future events have already been determined by past events.

This theory allows for pseudo-randomness, which is what appears to exist in quantum physics.

I have stated before that I am a Determinist. I agree, I was using causality too loosely (more of as a general term, which is, I admit, an incorrect use of the word).

You are a fool. You state that I have no evidence for any of my arguments, and that I only see "ignorant idealism." However, I've shown that all my arguments have historical, mathematical, philosophical, and physical evidence. You've shown no evidence yourself. Therefore, you are a hypocrite. I win.

Source (http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html#axioms)

Edit: I just thought I'd clear some things up:

You are arguing the same thing I am in terms of theory, but you are simply arguing me (in hindsight). So, therefore, I wouldn't have to get any evidence, because it wouldn't change your mind. Nothing I say will change your mind. Do you know what that is called? Stupidity. Bias. Whatever you want to call it, you are refusing to see reason. Which is bad. Very bad.

I am not insecure for not revealing information about myself. Just because I change my alias online for different activities, does not mean I am insecure. It means I don't trust you, or anyone else on the internet. And for good reason.

I digress. I will not commit Argumentum ad Hominem for you or anybody else for that matter.

[RAV]

Quantum physics was not invented by Einstein. He was the first to patent his THEORY on quantum physics. Big difference.

He is credited for it. And he did most of the research and basically all the math for the new quantum image that we see.

The point I was making about micro and macro is that micro effects macro. If you walk up against a wall you are most likely not going to go through it. But if you walk against it for eternity you have a reasonable chance to go through it. Though atoms move through each other all the time.

As I said before it is impossible to prove whether or not randomness exists but I can make a valid statement.

[aalivingnow]

yeah i am convinced that there is pure randomness, but that randomness that happens didn't happen for no reason. kind of like driving past something and acknowledging it, it will affect you good or bad if your actually living in the now and not stuck in your head hesitant and unsure all of the time.

[Falcor]

Im hongrey!!! ! ! !!! <(^_^<)

[Durandal4]

Im hongrey!!! ! ! !!! <(^_^<)

Of your 200 posts or so, how many of which are actually relevant to the topic?

As I said before it is impossible to prove whether or not randomness exists but I can make a valid statement.

So what you're saying is there is no way to prove that randomness is real, but there are plenty of "valid" theories that can help justify it's nonexistence to an extent?

[Falcor]

99.9 percent of them.
That was randomness, you assaroni.

[therebelsoldier]

Definatley not. Everything happens universally, with reason, everything causes another thing like a chain reaction. Nothing happens just because it did. It all connects in some way shape or form.